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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Pekka makes an excellent point. Karate, TKD, Kung Fu (all forms) pretty much suck from a realistic self defense standpoint, as do the more exotic arts such as Tang Soo Do, trapfighting, and things of that nature.
Now yes, I'm sure that some 200 lb guy with 25 years experience in Shotokan would be dangerous. But that's not the point. If it takes you 20 years to become effective in self defense, then it's time to find another fighting system, preferably one that doesn't emphasize the "art" part in "martial arts". That means cut out the forms, cut out the "self defense techniques", cut out the step by step sparring, and for God's sake cut out the philosophy.
Look at it like this - if you get into a fight w/ a 20 year old who has a black belt in, say, TKD, and you're a fairly strong/big guy, you don't have much to worry about - you just ground and pound his ass. Most people aren't worried about Karate and other traditional systems, and find them vaguely amusing.
But ask these people about Brazilian Jiujitsu, Valetudo, Muay Thai, and even stuff like Krav Maga, and a)they won't know what the **** you're talking about, and b)when they find out, they won't get a kick out of the non-existent Butterfly Style Form IIB.
The final thing is that without cross-training, your ass is dead. You have to be a "complete fighter" - that means good kicks, good punching ability, good shots, and good grappling. A collegiate wrestler? Not a problem, will get his ass kicked against a competent striker. A collegiate wrestler w/ cross training in Muay Thai or Boxing? It's gonna take a lot more to beat this guy. A pro boxer? Let's see how good those punches are when he's flat on his back. A pro boxer who knows Brazilian Jiujitsu? 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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I've got a challenge match tomorrow with a black belt in a Korean martial art called Kuk Sool Won. The guy is about 4 inches taller and outweighs me by probably 50 pounds, so this could get interesting...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
David, what do you think of the instructors responsibility? They DO market these things as the best self defense, and that you can defend yourself against armed attackers etc? Because that's not really true. Well you can if you're lucky, but I wouldn't really count on it. |
Well, I think that some of this stuff DOES work from a BASIC self defense aspect, in CERTAIN situations. The problem, though, is that for, say, Shotokan or Kenpo to work, you're gonna have to have a LOT of experience.
As to responsibility, I don't think the instructors have any malicious intent, and they also can and will claim that they are teaching a system of philosophy that happens to include fighting aspects.
It's a load of horseshit, but hold them responsible for "their" style not working? I personally don't think so.
quote:
OH! and almost the biggest growing market is women. |
You're absolutely right.
One of my female friends recently started taking Wing Chun Kung Fu. She's about 100 pounds, and maybe 5'1". Last night, I basically told her that if that's what she wanted to do because she enjoyed it, great, but that she shouldn't approach it from a self defense aspect. I quickly added that what I do wouldn't work well for her either - she's too small and doesn't have enough physical strength. This isn't to say that women can't learn to fight or be good fighters - it's just much more difficult for them, for whatever reason (teaching a woman how to throw a proper punch is an exercise in utter frustration).
I think that for real self defense most women need to a)avoid traveling alone in dangerous areas, b)carry and handgun, or mace, or something like that, and c)learn some sort of last ditch, brutal type of hand to hand comabt. I think that incorporating ELEMENTS of Krav Maga would be the best for this situation, if you want to put a name to it, but about the best thing to teach women is how to strike quickly with surprise to sensitive areas (groin, neck, etc.), and GET AWAY.
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:29
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self defense is meant to help u even the odds. Now if u make a scneario of 100lb female going up agst the 200lb guy with a knife, no matter how well trained u are in self defense, its probably gonna be near impossible to make it completely even.
so is martial arts effective? well I'll reiterate the answer i give over and over again. That would depend on how dedicated u are and how talented or athletic u are. Most of the ppl I see that goto dojos and practice martial arts are completley inept geeks that think learning will make a difference... well it will, but not enough. This applies to every single school +sport. Its not the style, its essentially the individual that improves him/herself.
instructors talk like if u learn martial arts u can fly cause well... thats how they make money!
Last edited by Zero on 13-07-2003 at 19:02
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
thats is off course an other option ( to run away ) , but if the woman is well trained and has some experience she can win , .....
size aint all that counts , ..... |
Yes and no. Size isn't all that matters, but look at it like this. If you are a black belt in, say, TKD, and someone the size of Arnold Schwarzeneggar comes after you, do you think you're going to win? Hint: You're not.
This applies doubly for women - without being sexist, they tend to be both smaller and weaker. A 5' tall, 105 lb woman isn't going to be able to harm a 200 lb man in most cases, whether or not she knows Karate. The problem with these traditional arts is that they are almost useless against takedowns and GnP (ground and pound). How good is your average kung fu sifu when he's lying flat on his back? Not very good. Assuming neither person has training in ground fighting, it becomes an issue of size and strength. Even limited grappling training can be harmful in a streetfight - for example, if you are grappling on concrete, and you try to pull a closed guard, you just ****ed up.
Here's my longwinded point. Size doesn't matter AS LONG AS a)the difference isn't huge, and b)you are fighting in your element. A superb striker isn't going to be **** on the ground, and most fights do end up on the ground. If you, at 150 lbs, don't think that a 225 lb guy can take you to the ground, you're very mistaken.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
I've been watching this program on tv for about 30 minutes now and it makes me sick. Self defense, I can't remember what discipline this is, but looks like generic class (white gi's and lots of hassling with hands and legs). I say this is a disgrace. These guys are all 'come here, join us, you never know what's going to happen. You learn self defense and you can defeat attackers with knives!'. YEAH SURE! They teach everything wrong if you want to really kick ass and be realistic about it.
1. technique training is wrong. No force or power is used. I'm not saying they should do with full power, but they don't use it at all. So it's all just 'ok if I pull you here, in reality you WOULD fall'. Yeah sure what ever you say mr sensei, I believe you. How do you know how it is really done, if you never do it with power? This creates myths to students and only will hurt them when they're in trouble and think they're all that, and finds out it didn't work.
2. Exhibitions. Again, more myths created. 'Look at me I can crush few bricks! Imagine what this would do to opponent!'.. Yeah sure. What ever mr. sensei. Nothing to do with reality, done to impress uneducated people. Only hurts and brainwashes people who are serious about learning self defense.
3. Sparring. No sparring.. just little slapping. So you never really test your skills in REALITY. No one cares about techniques, if you can't implement them when someone smashes you. And strategies fly right out of the window when someone starts whailing on you. Believe me, they do.
Now, it's not all bad. It's actually pretty good. You get a nice hobby and sweat, maybe make new friends. That's always good. Also you learn something, but unfortunately it doesn't help you too much. Maybe psychologically, but hey that's enough for most people.
I'm not talking about schoolyard bullies. I'm talking about bad folks who come just to kick your butt, and are not physically challenged to begin with. And what was the talk about 'defending against armed attackers, multiple attackers' etc? Oh man, that's just like giving a big gun to 6 year old kid and say it's a toy.
There are of course more advanced folks and they are more able to defend themselves and are better, but it takes years. It's the not so serious about it folks who I'm talking about.
I wonder if I can sue instructor who taught stuff to my kid and he's faced with armed attacker, and tries to do what he learned in the class? He gave my kid illusion of being better than he really is. And that is the most dangerous thing, over estimating yourself. That's when you hurt yourself.
So I call all these people being not responsible illusion artists.
It's bunch of hypocrites. They don't even teach you, if they even know themselves the real tactics of dangerous situation. You don't go for a flashy high kick, or slow throw. You go for the eyes, and take the dude out.
Also they have this thing about passivity. It's not good to be passive if you are in danger. You either get out and make a run for it, or engage and be the one doing all the aggressive moves.
It is a good hobby, but creating illusions is dangerous. Are these folks (instructors) responsible when their students get their butts kicked, or even killed? |
Ok..let me address an opinion from both an Instructor and a long time avid martial artist enthusiast.
I dont know the show your talking about, BUT, in response to your posts:
Counter Point #1-Techniques are just that, you need to teach basic techniques first then power will follow once student gtes proper techniques down first. If they dont know how to properly use a techniques then they sre as heck cannot learn how to put speed or power or proficiency to use.
Counter Point #2-Exhibitions are just that..EXHIBITIONS. Breaking bricks,bats,blocks, woods,ect. shows one the force needed to do damage to a certain degree. 4-1" thick boards are the equivalent of breaking the floating ribs, 5-1" thick boards are the equivalent of breaking the main rib cage.
Use of say a Jung Kwan (knife hand) against 3-1" thick boards shoulder level while stepping back shows how to shatter a collar bone.
U take the average newbie, put him in a Dojo and he has yet to learn discipline or balance or proper techniques. Nor has he the basics of balance or timing. Thru BASIC instruction or fundamentals a person can become a more adept martial artist. Exhibitions merely show potential under a controlled environment. Thats why various styles and various techniques are taught over and over. To tech discipline and profiency.
Counter Point #3-sparring. This should be taken easily until one gets some experience. It doesnt do anyone any good to kick the snot out of each other in practice. Yes sparring is great, but not if the whole point is to just "wail away". Unless your in Hollywood? As for Bad Boys just coming to kick your butt, just because you study martial arts doesnt mean you can beat everyone up, NOW THAT IS CRAP! Martial Arts dont teach you to whoop everyone and evrything in the World, that type of thinking gets many whooped real soon.
I agree that a new student wont have the peace of mind or training to disarm an armed attacker nor take out multiple attackers. BUt an instructor cannot be held responsible for every individual that comes through the door, turning them into a well oiled, death weilding machine.
I agree some artists dont have any business instructing, I also agree some artists teach bull$h!T techniques.
I just defend the theory that kids and newer adult students need any experienced techniques taught early, they dont know the when or why or how to properly use them.
Thats my $0.02 worth is all
Peace
Grandpa Troll
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
Counter Point #1-Techniques are just that, you need to teach basic techniques first then power will follow once student gtes proper techniques down first. If they dont know how to properly use a techniques then they sre as heck cannot learn how to put speed or power or proficiency to use. |
True, but what kind of a "technique" do you think is more effective?
a)The "If....Then" method?
or
b)Teaching someone the basic strikes, and letting them go to work on a heavy bag, to practice form, speed, and power?
To me, option b) is much more effective.
quote:
Counter Point #2-Exhibitions are just that..EXHIBITIONS. Breaking bricks,bats,blocks, woods,ect. shows one the force needed to do damage to a certain degree. 4-1" thick boards are the equivalent of breaking the floating ribs, 5-1" thick boards are the equivalent of breaking the main rib cage. |
Yes, but this kind of thing assumes a clean, unblocked shot. In a real fight, you're both gonna be moving around, his hands are gonna be up, and it's unlikely you will be able to unload one killer shot.
Now, if you knock the guy down, then sure, you can do that - but rather than teaching someone how to break boards with their hand, why not just teach them to take their foot, pick it up, and stomp really hard on the guy's head once he is on the ground? Again, KISS principle.
quote:
BASIC instruction or fundamentals a person can become a more adept martial artist. |
If you want to be an adept martial artist, then by all means, take a traditional art, with forms, philosophy, etc. If you want to be a complete fighter, then ditch everything that has little or nothing to do with fighting, and concentrate on what works. Not everyone wants that, and I have no problem with traditional arts if we can all accept them for what they are.
quote:
Counter Point #3-sparring. This should be taken easily until one gets some experience. |
Define "some experience". When I took Kenpo Karate, and also TKD, for around a year, we never sparred once, nor did I see anyone ranked higher than me sparring. Now, if by "some experience" you mean a basic knowledge of kicks, punches, and things like that, as well as a few safety lectures and such, then certainly, you are correct.
quote:
It doesnt do anyone any good to kick the snot out of each other in practice. |
I disagree. If you get your ass kicked, you're gonna learn from it. I'd rather get my ass kicked in the gym then get my ass kicked in a streetfight - that is, I'd rather learn really quick what works and what doesn't, than training with what won't work for 5 years and getting put in a hospital by a street brawler.
quote:
As for Bad Boys just coming to kick your butt, just because you study martial arts doesnt mean you can beat everyone up, NOW THAT IS CRAP! Martial Arts dont teach you to whoop everyone and evrything in the World, that type of thinking gets many whooped real soon. |
Obviously you can't take everyone, but someone who is a "complete fighter" (kicking, punching, shots/takedowns, defense, and grappling/submissions) doesn't have a lot to worry about against an unarmed opponent. That's the whole point of investing the time in learning how to fight. If you want to get in shape, join the gym. If you want to hone your spirituality, go to church. If you want philosophy, take a class. I don't have time for a system that is geared heavily towards that stuff.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:29
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Troll, I'm way too drunk to read the whole post, or answer with good answer. I read some of your post, and it has legit points. I'm not denying, that martial artist of any kind with lots of experience wouldn't be good. I'm sure he/she is. I'm sure they can defend themselves pretty good against most threats.
My biggest beef was that most of them (at here at least, I don't know everyone) has a trend to market themselves as the ultimate style, and the best you can find to defend yourself. Some people just come for the sport and maybe more, but some people come to learn strictly realistic self defense.
This is where I see the problem. I'm not saying martial arts of all kinds are not good sport or hobby. They are good. But, if you're looking to defend yourself in ultimate worst case scenario situations, training should focus on it, and provide the best tools, realistic tools. You can always teach a lightweight woman with no experience to kick groins, some strikes and throws. But they're not very realistic against real threats, where you have multiple attackers, big men and arms. I bring this up, because it was on tv and they said the provide best tools for defending againast multiple armed baddies. So that's where my beef is, and they know they're not giving the tools REALLY needed. Like I said, they don't teach to push the car keyes in the eyes of multiple armed attackers and things like that. So I'm not talking about different styles, but pure self defense, at it's purest form. That's what you need to know, practice and do if you're in very threatning situation. Anyone can teach 'run'. I don't want to pay good money to learn 'run' or kicks and strikes. If I put my money on it and they promise to teach me these things, then damn it I want to learn them. And there are several good techniques and moves, many of what I know in military version of Krav Maga, but from other places too.
And I know it's unfair to say one style is not realistic, because me and David Floyd are talking about mixing different styles. So of course we can say 'well kickboxing doesn't give me the skills on ground', but that doesn't mean it's bad style.
So, my attack was not directed to you, Troll, but to instructors who market and make money teaching things that are not the best ones, and they know it.
And it maybe was unfair to question the training methods, because most people don't come for hard workout that ends with someone kicking your butt even harder.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Troll, I'm way too drunk to read the whole post, or answer with good answer. I read some of your post, and it has legit points. I'm not denying, that martial artist of any kind with lots of experience wouldn't be good. I'm sure he/she is. I'm sure they can defend themselves pretty good against most threats.
My biggest beef was that most of them (at here at least, I don't know everyone) has a trend to market themselves as the ultimate style, and the best you can find to defend yourself. Some people just come for the sport and maybe more, but some people come to learn strictly realistic self defense.
This is where I see the problem. I'm not saying martial arts of all kinds are not good sport or hobby. They are good. But, if you're looking to defend yourself in ultimate worst case scenario situations, training should focus on it, and provide the best tools, realistic tools. You can always teach a lightweight woman with no experience to kick groins, some strikes and throws. But they're not very realistic against real threats, where you have multiple attackers, big men and arms. I bring this up, because it was on tv and they said the provide best tools for defending againast multiple armed baddies. So that's where my beef is, and they know they're not giving the tools REALLY needed. Like I said, they don't teach to push the car keyes in the eyes of multiple armed attackers and things like that. So I'm not talking about different styles, but pure self defense, at it's purest form. That's what you need to know, practice and do if you're in very threatning situation. Anyone can teach 'run'. I don't want to pay good money to learn 'run' or kicks and strikes. If I put my money on it and they promise to teach me these things, then damn it I want to learn them. And there are several good techniques and moves, many of what I know in military version of Krav Maga, but from other places too.
And I know it's unfair to say one style is not realistic, because me and David Floyd are talking about mixing different styles. So of course we can say 'well kickboxing doesn't give me the skills on ground', but that doesn't mean it's bad style.
So, my attack was not directed to you, Troll, but to instructors who market and make money teaching things that are not the best ones, and they know it.
And it maybe was unfair to question the training methods, because most people don't come for hard workout that ends with someone kicking your butt even harder. |
hi ,
a drunke, soldier cant defend himself , ....... 
have a nice one
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesayen
Pekka........... I really couldnt agree more. I've been doing Ju-Jitsu for years and I always thought the "form/technique" training was total and utter crap.........
It does have a plus side though. It shows you general motions on how to defend yourself which helps, more importantly it can GREATLY improve your reflexes and physical shape, which can certaintly help in a fight LOL!
In a hand to hand fight I think I could come out on top against most people I know, based on what I have learned, but also the conditioning done to my body from it, but if someone pulls a knife, I am going to kindly give them my wallet, LOL!
After three years of it though, I went to a new dojo, one which focuses more on how you REALLY fight, and not the BS form stuff-I liked that much more, especially because we had full contact sparing(The rule being: If you hurt someone bad your kicked out and left to the legal retaliation of your victims-the worst that ever happened was a few broken fingers and sprains, no one ever sued and no one hurt anyone bad enough to be kicked out) heh! |
I joined a violent dojo in college (judo), and it was possibly the best thing to happen to me at the university. All of my aggressive impulses were toned down into a dull roar on the street because I fought black belts five days a week. Whenever any trouble did start, it was over in about 5 seconds, I won, and my opponent was uninjured. The only bad thing that happened was that I got injured several times, and had to quit the team for a year in order to heal up from a nasty hyperextension of my thumb (and the other stuff as well, but the thumb was the coup de grace). Fortunately for me I got back into soccer to stay in shape (it was one of the few sports where I didn't need a functional hand).
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13-07-2003 06:53
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