14-07-2003 00:31									#31
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You know what's ironic about my stance on conservation? I hate small cars... I hate little import pieces of crap. I like big sedans... my parents even own a lite-SUV (a Toyota Highlander). The problem is... America can put a guy on the moon, can spy on people using satelites (to the point where we can spot a fly on a camel's ass in Iraq), but yet... oh no, we can't make a gas-powered sedan that can do better than 30 mpg...

that's BS... I'm a firm believer in the intelligence and ingenuity of American industry. It can be built... but if everyone started driving cars that get 30+ mpg... Big Oil's profits would go down. And since Big Oil runs the country, it's no surprise our government won't encourage conservation and efficiency.

	14-07-2003 00:32									#32
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quote: Funny how conservation was important when we were trying to rid the world of Nazis... but suddenly... it's not so important.

Yeah, there was thing... you know... this war and all? And we needed a few things for the war effort... it was almost run like a dictatorship too, you'd like that right?

quote: hint hint... Imran, if you believe Cheney, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

One of your main problems is that you think that anyone that disagrees with your beliefs is always lying. It's why no one takes you seriously .

	14-07-2003 00:38									#33
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quote: Yeah, there was thing... you know... this war and all? And we needed a few things for the war effort... it was almost run like a dictatorship too, you'd like that right?

that's strange... your president is telling me we're at war...

quote: One of your main problems is that you think that anyone that disagrees with your beliefs is always lying.

considering my beliefs are based upon facts and empirical evidence... and considering my opposition is based upon unsubstantiated ideology... yeah... they are usually either lying or wrong. And when I'm wrong, I have no bones about accepting it and changing my opinions. Look up pragmatic in the dicitionary, and you'll see my face. Ironically, you could look up 4sshole and also see my pic..

	14-07-2003 01:26									#34
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quote: that's strange... your president is telling me we're at war...

So you also believe the 'War on Drugs' means we've been at WW2 level war for 30 years or so?

quote: considering my beliefs are based upon facts and empirical evidence... and considering my opposition is based upon unsubstantiated ideology... yeah... they are usually either lying or wrong.

Silly troll.

	14-07-2003 01:39									#35
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The biggest problem for natural gas is not SUVs, but rather gas-fired power plants. Because of environmental controls that discourage coal use, most new power plants are being fueled by gas. This along with a lack of increase in the supply of the fuel, has led to the dramatic increase in price, from around $2 per million BTU to around $5 over the past few years.

I didn't bother reading the article, but considering you keep bringing up SUVs Sava, I doubt you really understand the issue.

	14-07-2003 01:43									#36
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quote: So you also believe the 'War on Drugs' means we've been at WW2 level war for 30 years or so?

two completely different things... the "war on drugs" is a war against America's dependence on substances... the "war on terror" and the "war on Iraq" are war's against people who want to kill us.

Felch

quote: I didn't bother reading the article, but considering you keep bringing up SUVs Sava, I doubt you really understand the issue.

So you have no idea what we are talking about, yet have the audacity to question my understanding? please... don't participate if you are just here to insult people...

	14-07-2003 01:53									#37
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I think he was spot on, Sava.

	14-07-2003 01:59									#38
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quote: I think he was spot on, Sava.

shaddup

	14-07-2003 01:59									#39
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quote: the "war on drugs" is a war against America's dependence on substances... the "war on terror" and the "war on Iraq" are war's against people who want to kill us.

I'm sure some Columbians want to kill us now too . The 'War on Drugs' isn't just about substance abuse, it also has a lot of action in Central and South America.

Anyway this 'War on Terror' is just as nebulous as the 'War on Drugs'.

	14-07-2003 02:02									#40
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quote: I'm sure some Columbians want to kill us now too

yeah, for napalming, dropping agent orange and other defoliants and chemical weapons on their country...

quote: Anyway this 'War on Terror' is just as nebulous as the 'War on Drugs'.

I agree... and as with the WoD, I believe the leadership is taken the wrong approach. In fact, I think the current admin's policies do more to encourage terrorism than stopping it.

	14-07-2003 02:06									#41
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It is a gamble... we definetly should haven taken out the Taliban and Afghanistan... couldn't let them hang out there and do nothing about it.

The next step is get friendly with the ME countries. Of course with Saddam and the Mullahs in Iran, this is impossible. It is easier to deal with dictators that don't have an ideological hatred of you. So we take out Saddam. We need Iran to warm up to us in order to try to reach out (ie, bribe) to all of the Arab states and get them on our side and start cracking down.

	14-07-2003 02:11									#42
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quote: It is a gamble... we definetly should haven taken out the Taliban and Afghanistan... couldn't let them hang out there and do nothing about it.

I agree... except we only dispered the Taliban... and we haven't replaced them with anything better. The Northern Alliance, BTW, our allies, are just as oppressive and evil. In fact, it relates to the War on Drugs. The Taliban didn't allow poppy growth (which is used for the opium trade)... but the Northern Alliance is an active player in the opium trade.

okay Imran, let's find a terrorism thread for this...

	14-07-2003 02:13									#43
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Just one point:

quote: The Northern Alliance, BTW, our allies, are just as oppressive and evil.

Yes, but relatively speaking they are better than the Taliban that actively fostered terrorism and were grade A ****s!

Anyway, we should do more for democracy over there... though part of me wonders if it'll ever happen even if we pump a trillion $'s there.

	14-07-2003 02:18									#44
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quote: Yes, but relatively speaking they are better than the Taliban that actively fostered terrorism and were grade A ****s!

They were equally as evil... it's just they were the evil that were more US friendly. Again, the US is notorious in supporting the evil that likes them better.

	14-07-2003 02:23									#45
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quote: it's just they were the evil that were more US friendly.

That's what I said. Relatively speaking they are better.

And btw, I don't think they are anything close to equally evil. The Taliban are up there with the most evil.

	14-07-2003 02:27									#46
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quote: Relatively speaking they are better.

Relative to you maybe

quote: And btw, I don't think they are anything close to equally evil. The Taliban are up there with the most evil.

Your opinion is based upon your limited knowledge of the two parties in question. Ultimately, I think such a discussion is irrelevant... similar to "who was more evil, Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacey?"...

remember... the US supported Stalin against Hitler. But I don't think there's any question that both were equally as evil. IIRC, don't you believe Stalin and his ilk were worse than Nazis?

okay enough.. no more threadjacking

	14-07-2003 02:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava two completely different things... the "war on drugs" is a war against America's dependence on substances... the "war on terror" and the "war on Iraq" are war's against people who want to kill us. FelchSo you have no idea what we are talking about, yet have the audacity to question my understanding? please... don't participate if you are just here to insult people...

Actually I have an internship in the field and have read (and summarized for my bosses) significant amounts of documentation about it. I heard Greenspan's testimony before the House Energy and Commerce Committee about natural gas prices from only about twenty feet away. I know about the issue. I just don't care to read about it when I'm not at work, and don't feel like putting up with you talking about SUVs which have nothing to do with natural gas.

	14-07-2003 02:30									#48
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quote: Actually I have an internship in the field and have read (and summarized for my bosses) significant amounts of documentation about it. I heard Greenspan's testimony before the House Energy and Commerce Committee about natural gas prices from only about twenty feet away. I know about the issue. I just don't care to read about it when I'm not at work, and don't feel like putting up with you talking about SUVs which have nothing to do with natural gas.

Well if you bothered to stop insulting and trolling and read the article, then you'd know that conservation and fuel efficiency are also topics for discussion.

So read the article... or go away... I'm lazy and don't want to have to ignore you.

	14-07-2003 02:38									#49
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quote: Well if you bothered to stop insulting and trolling and read the article, then you'd know that conservation and fuel efficiency are also topics for discussion. So read the article... or go away... I'm lazy and don't want to have to ignore you.

	14-07-2003 02:40									#50
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I'm rather fond of wind-power, myself. No fiddly yet to be developed technology, reasonably constant, ecologically benign and it uses windswept areas which have little other economic use.

On fusion, I'm both sceptical and nervous. Firstly, fusion has been on the drawingboard for fifty years and nothing hs come of it. Secondly, we'd still be using the heat generated to heat water and spin turbines, just like two hundred years ago. This is not especially efficient. Thirdly, with unlimited energy, we'd have no incentive to conserve energy, and large-scale fusion would create risks of global warming, simply by heating the planet up.

	14-07-2003 02:43									#51
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quote: IIRC, don't you believe Stalin and his ilk were worse than Nazis?

No, Stalin gets 2nd place on the list.

	14-07-2003 02:45									#52
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Oh wow, Sava called me a troll. I should run away and hide because he hurt his feelings.

The fact that I have not once insulted you in this thread makes me wonder why you said I should stop insulting and trolling, but who cares about that. . .

Or, I could ignore the fact that he knows nothing but clichés and continue pissing him off.

I read the first paragraph, and you're right, it is about gasoline and natural gas. So one point for you. Natural gas prices still are affected more by increasing environmental regulation than anything else so I stand by that statement.

quote: the Bush admin gives tax CREDITS for SUV's.

The SUVs have to be a legitimate business expense to earn the tax credit. In other words, they have to be used as light trucks, not as cars. Of course people with good lawyers will get around that, but you can't blame the administration or lawmakers for the ways that underhanded people will manipulate laws. And you should be more complete and honest with your information in any event.

quote: the industry isn't giving consumers the choice between huge gas guzzlers and efficient vehicles. The industry average in fuel consumption has gone down since 1987.

You're misrepresenting statistics and drawing an invalid conclusion. The average fuel consumption has declined because of the increased market share of SUVs, which are considered light trucks for CAFE purposes. Fuel efficient vehicles are available, and are more efficient than ever. They just aren't popular.

quote: we can't make a gas-powered sedan that can do better than 30 mpg...

The problem is not Big Oil. The problem is that in order to meet CAFE standards, automakers reduce the weight of vehicles, and make them less crashworthy as a result. If you were going to get in a crash in a Geo Metro or in a Toyota Camry, which would you prefer?

And after that you pretty much threadjacked your own thread.

	14-07-2003 02:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman large-scale fusion would create risks of global warming, simply by heating the planet up.

WTF?

	14-07-2003 02:52									#54
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Each fusion plant is like a little sun. Imagine the effect of a couple of hundred little suns scattered across the Earth. All the energy they generate will eventually turn back into heat, and will raise the temperature of the planet.

	14-07-2003 02:54									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Felch WTF?

Wast heat from the reactor, But is is not enough to cause global warming.

	14-07-2003 02:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Sadly, I don't see good american cars, anymore. Well, 'cept Ford, but I don't think those are manufactured in the US.

ummmmm...

	14-07-2003 03:01									#57
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quote: Each fusion plant is like a little sun. Imagine the effect of a couple of hundred little suns scattered across the Earth. All the energy they generate will eventually turn back into heat, and will raise the temperature of the planet.

The problem with this analysis is that the energy WILL get used. It will power our homes and offices, etc. The waste heat that will come from Fusion power will probably be much less than that from current Fossil Fuel usage.

	14-07-2003 03:01									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Each fusion plant is like a little sun. Imagine the effect of a couple of hundred little suns scattered across the Earth. All the energy they generate will eventually turn back into heat, and will raise the temperature of the planet.

Yes, but it radiates into space. The global warming problem is that greenhouse gases prevent heat from radiating into space, not the generation of additional heat.

Plus, the "little sun" analogy is just plain wrong. They have the same MECHANICS as the sun, but not NEARLY the same power.

	14-07-2003 03:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava that's strange... your president is telling me we're at war... considering my beliefs are based upon facts and empirical evidence... and considering my opposition is based upon unsubstantiated ideology... yeah... they are usually either lying or wrong. And when I'm wrong, I have no bones about accepting it and changing my opinions. Look up pragmatic in the dicitionary, and you'll see my face. Ironically, you could look up 4sshole and also see my pic..

Hey, good luck on your ego trip -- let us know when you come back.

	14-07-2003 03:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Each fusion plant is like a little sun. Imagine the effect of a couple of hundred little suns scattered across the Earth. All the energy they generate will eventually turn back into heat, and will raise the temperature of the planet.

Since we will amazingly lower the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by stopping using fossil fuel, that heat will radiate away.