14-07-2003 03:24									#61
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The problem with this analysis is that the energy WILL get used. It will power our homes and offices, etc. The waste heat that will come from Fusion power will probably be much less than that from current Fossil Fuel usage.

By powering our homes and offices, it will be turned into heat. Energy isn't used, it's converted. Simple physics.

quote: Yes, but it radiates into space. The global warming problem is that greenhouse gases prevent heat from radiating into space, not the generation of additional heat.

The sun generates heat. It radiates it into space, but it's still incredibly hot. Even though the heat will eventually radiate into space, every fusion reactor will raise the temperature of the Earth, albeit by a tiny amount.

quote: Plus, the "little sun" analogy is just plain wrong. They have the same MECHANICS as the sun, but not NEARLY the same power.

Hence the 'little'.

	14-07-2003 04:24									#62
	Remove this text

quote: The problem is not Big Oil. The problem is that in order to meet CAFE standards, automakers reduce the weight of vehicles, and make them less crashworthy as a result. If you were going to get in a crash in a Geo Metro or in a Toyota Camry, which would you prefer?

less crashworth against bigger vehicles... if everyone is driving such more efficient vehicles, crashworthiness remains relatively constant.

quote: They just aren't popular.

The averages I quoted from the article are not "actual usage" but rather industry averages of the Fuel Efficiency ratings. Which are usually higher than actual usage. If anything, the data is misleading, but in favor of the car companies.

I'm glad to see you started to read the article, but your post was still riddled with insults... don't bother addressing or posting to me in the future, because I won't respond until you can learn to be a decent human being.

	14-07-2003 04:32									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The sun generates heat. It radiates it into space, but it's still incredibly hot. Even though the heat will eventually radiate into space, every fusion reactor will raise the temperature of the Earth, albeit by a tiny amount.

The solution: leave the planet.

Generally, this is not so: what we are worried about is the heating of the Atmosphere, and that only occurs because of the greenhouse gases. The earth CONSTANTLY gives away heat, radiates energy. If more of that radiation will go into space, there is nothing to worry about. The problem occures when this radiation heats the atmosphere, which occurs through greenhouse gases.

	14-07-2003 05:01									#64
	Full PM-box? Change here!

More chicken little "the sky is falling" retoric. I've been hearing this for decades and the sky still hasn't fallen.

We have high natural gas prices because no one can get a pipeline built or a new field developed. We have plenty of untapped domestic natural gas so why aren't we tapping in to it? Good question. How about asking the "eviromentalists" who constiently try to obstruct development and put a million and one road blocks in front of anyone foolish enough to want to invest in this sector? Also California has the highest gas pricesd in North America largely because the last new refinary to be built was 40 years ago (how much larger is demand now compared to 1960?) and the eviromental lobby insists we get a special "reformulated" gasoline which isn't made any were else in the world. Thus we have a huge bottle neck retarding supply and competetion.

Lastly, did you folks hear about the previous "reformulated" gasoline the left wing nutjobs forced onto us in California? It contained MTBE which the Sierra Club insisted, spending millions and lobbying the state assembly, had to be included in gasoline so it could reduce emissions by 2%. That 2% reduction cast 20% more then unreformutated gasoline and, oh yeah did I meantion, MTBE causes cancer plus it is water soluable so it is now in a great deal of our state's ground water. Most scientists and industry leaders said this would happen and that MTBE was to dangerous to be forced onto consumers, but, the Sierra Club and their green cohorts rammed MTBE down everyone's throats.

Now, vast areas of the state's ground water is contaminated with a dangerous carcenogien and nobody has figured out a way of cleaning the problem up. Thank you eviromentalists our world is so much better because of you nutjobs!

	14-07-2003 05:01									#65
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fez's DL Sava your post was still riddled with insults...

What insults? Feel free to quote me to point them out.

	14-07-2003 05:02									#66
	Put an end to popups!

Oerdin: do you really want us to wait till the skies fall?

	14-07-2003 05:05									#67
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Don't worry about MTBE Oerdin - there was an amendment in the Senate energy bill to get rid of it. That should be up for debate before the August recess. It'll still have to be passed and make it through committee, but I doubt anybody will remove it now.

	14-07-2003 05:08									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oerdin: do you really want us to wait till the skies fall?

How about dealing with reality instead of everyone insisting the world is coming to an end when it clearly is not? Face it there is plenty of oil left to exploit.

Have you heard about how in the 1970's the enviromentalists were claiming we only had 30 years worth of oil left? Boy were they wrong. We've got five times the proven reserves now then we did in the 1970's and the ocean floor, which makes up 70% of the earth's surface, still has barely been explored the same goes for antartica, greenland, much of the Canadian far north, and far northern Siberia hasn't been extensively explored with modern equipement.

We've got enough oil to last for centuries.

	14-07-2003 05:21									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The public wouldn't let the oil companies to drill in Antarctica, I think there is a UN thing that says there is supposed to be no industy on that continent and that the many nations' claims on the continent are not to be recognized.

	14-07-2003 05:36									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The hydrogen cars are actually very close to production.

It's those electric cars that suck.

	14-07-2003 05:39									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hybred powered cars are were the future is not hydrogen. Do you know where those hydrogen powered cars get their hydrogen from? They get it from hydro-Carbons like gasoline so you still aren't kicking the oil barrel when you switch to hydrogen though we could possibly get less pollution depending on how efficiently we can convert crude oil into gasoline into hydrogen into energy propelling a car forward.

	14-07-2003 05:46									#72
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well you can get the hydrogen from natural gas.

Up until recently the US had a surplus of domestic natural gas.

	14-07-2003 05:53									#73
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: less crashworth against bigger vehicles... if everyone is driving such more efficient vehicles, crashworthiness remains relatively constant.

Sava, think for a second (I know it is hard ). Trees and walls aren't going to be made from the same flimsy materials that cars will be .

	14-07-2003 05:54									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The US still has monsterous sized proven reserves of natural gas. We just haven't built the distribution system to get it were it needs to go largely because we've had three decades of enviromentalists obstructing new projects due to their absolutely pathological hatred for anything to do with the oil/gas industry.

	14-07-2003 07:14									#75
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: The solution: leave the planet. Generally, this is not so: what we are worried about is the heating of the Atmosphere, and that only occurs because of the greenhouse gases. The earth CONSTANTLY gives away heat, radiates energy. If more of that radiation will go into space, there is nothing to worry about. The problem occures when this radiation heats the atmosphere, which occurs through greenhouse gases.

We don't need to leave the planet or forget about fusion power, we just have to be responsible with it. That means maintaining high standards of energy efficiency, rather than just splurging on cheap energy.

The Earth can only radiate more heat if it first becomes hotter. Which it will, if fusion is used excessively. The world will not suddenly adjust its thermal properties if a load of fusion plants are suddenly activated, it will simply warm up. Yes, it will radiate more heat, but only because it is itself hotter.

	14-07-2003 08:01									#76
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The US still has monsterous sized proven reserves of natural gas. We just haven't built the distribution system to get it were it needs to go largely because we've had three decades of enviromentalists obstructing new projects due to their absolutely pathological hatred for anything to do with the oil/gas industry.

I am enviromentalist, but if you coulden't beleive anything Big Oil sad you would probably do the same thing.

TREE HUGGERS R GOOD!!!

	14-07-2003 09:09									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Azazel The thing is, the amount of research done is pityful in comparison to the enormous big ****ing huge ass hyper super duper I-cannot-overestimate-this Bonanza that would come from Fusion power. What is the percentage of Fusion research as a part of government spending? And then, you build another COMPLETELY UNNEEDED carrier. It's a shame really. Even a capitalist sees it. I am sure that the US' greatest presidents, Linocln, Roosvelt 1, FDR, Ike, they'd all agree that the USA is going the WRONG way in things.

Bah! They're all aircraft carriers now.

	14-07-2003 09:19									#78
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Sava, think for a second (I know it is hard ). Trees and walls aren't going to be made from the same flimsy materials that cars will be .

You don't know much about physics, eh? Or do you have a "BA" in that as well?

Impact time is what kills in accidents.... G forces... etc... It doesn't matter if you are in a tank. If you hit somethings... a tree, a building, etc... the impact time kills. By making vehicles out of weaker materials, the car absorbs the impact energy, thereby increasing the impact time. Even a .05 of a second can mean the difference between life and death. A person has no better chance of surviving a crash in an SUV than in a lighter vehicle if the impact time is small. Because of their rigid design, SUV's and other vehicles are actually more dangerous.

If you hit a concrete pillar going 45 mph, it doesn't matter what vehicle you are in... seatbelts and airbags make more difference than materials used in the vehicle's construction.

It's not about safety... it's not about consumer demands... it's about oil profits. I only hope one day you will realize how the world works.

	14-07-2003 09:20									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Felch The biggest problem for natural gas is not SUVs, but rather gas-fired power plants. Because of environmental controls that discourage coal use, most new power plants are being fueled by gas. This along with a lack of increase in the supply of the fuel, has led to the dramatic increase in price, from around $2 per million BTU to around $5 over the past few years. I didn't bother reading the article, but considering you keep bringing up SUVs Sava, I doubt you really understand the issue.

You are exactly right about the natural gas shortage. It was created by idiotic government environmental policy, and it was quite obvious it was going to happen for years. So states like California built a lot of natural gas fueled electrical generation plants, and now there is a gas shortage. Well duh!

Did anyone in the government stop to think for just a second that natural gas does a lot of things well for which there is no ready substitute? If you want to heat something in a populated area natural gas is uniquely capable of doing it cleanly and efficiently. Now the power plant will burn the gas (that you can no longer afford) and turn it into electricity (at a steep loss in energy from its potential) which you can then use to heat your soup (at an even steeper loss). Fvcking morons!

	14-07-2003 09:20									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

are you high Odin?

	14-07-2003 09:20									#81
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Lastly, did you folks hear about the previous "reformulated" gasoline the left wing nutjobs forced onto us in California? It contained MTBE which the Sierra Club insisted, spending millions and lobbying the state assembly, had to be included in gasoline so it could reduce emissions by 2%.

From everything I've read, it's the environmentalists who were trying to stop the use of MTBE. In a odd switch, Canada is the ones trying to force it down California's throat, by suing the US under NAFTA saying that the banning of MTBE is an unfair trade restriction. They're suing for $750 million dollars. Fortunately for California, they won't have to foot the bill. That's the Fed's bill, since they signed the treaty, not California.

	14-07-2003 09:24									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I remember the case well. The Sierra Club is the single biggest lobbying group in the state and they were putting their total weight behind it. Five years later, after MBTE start showing up in well water, the Sierra Club reversed course and backed California's effort to Ban MTBE. The funny fact remains that MTBE would never have been used if the Sierra Club and other enviromental groups hadn't acted in such an extream fashion by insisting the scientific community didn't know what they were talking about.

	14-07-2003 09:27									#83
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well you can get the hydrogen from natural gas. Up until recently the US had a surplus of domestic natural gas.

When did you quit that "all bean diet"?

	14-07-2003 09:28									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You want a solution? Enforce mileage laws on the books. Make Trucks and light vehicles, and cars all require 25 mpg from the producers and not just as an average. This is easily obtainable now with hybrid cars. There is no reason for cars to have less than 40 mpg as a requirement.

Here's my idea:

1) Re-instate the 1985 law that requires ALL vehicles to have a minimum mileage of 25 miles per gallon. Right now SUV's and trucks are exempt from this law. Cars only have to average 25 mpg, so some can be below as long as enough to average it out are sold above.
2) Require that cars (light vehicles, ie not SUVs or trucks) sold in the United States average at 45 mpg.
3) Have this all in place by 2008.
4) Have tax incentives for motorists that convert their cars/trucks to the hybrid standard.

Auto makers that fail to comply will get a fine per car sold.

This is easily feasible.

	14-07-2003 09:36									#85
	Support Apolyton

see how much GOP support you get for that Veda...

	14-07-2003 09:49									#86
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Bah! They're all aircraft carriers now.

Ironic, isn't it? I am sure they'd use the money for other things.

	14-07-2003 09:54									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The worse thing the articl predicts will happen is higher energy prices..Oh God, no!!!!!!!! OPh, and continued relience on outside energy products. And all I ahve to say is "No sh1t sherlock". at least, in the US.

	14-07-2003 09:56									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Ironic, isn't it? I am sure they'd use the money for other things.

Don't you see azazel: we have to wait for private enterprise to attempt to make Fusion commercially viable, becuase we all know how inefficient the gov is. private fusion will be much more effective than public fusion.