14-07-2003 02:06									#1
	MOM: how long do your games last? Get a bigger avatar today!

Since i've recently been on a fastest turn kick, i was wondering how long it takes people to finish even a blitz game. i've noticed it takes about 300-500 turns for your home city just to finish building all the buildings, so having say 4-6 cities is the minimum to win a game.

i think for me, on average, it takes about 1500 turns before i start the "fighting phase" of the game, where i switch all mana to everything except research, research spell of mastery, and start building mostly units and/or casting a lot of summon champion/create artifact.

i also hate winning the game with spell of mastery. that's totally boring. i like having the power from say 5-10 nodes and making buff heros.

	14-07-2003 05:32									#2
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Funny, but I've never paid attention to how long my games last in terms of #s of turns. All I can offer in answer to your question is, too long when I win, and not nearly long enough when I lose.

	14-07-2003 17:36									#3
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I usually have a game lasting around four hours. I never checked turns. I'll agree that quick games are always losses, though. At least you know before wasting too much time.

	15-07-2003 04:49									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon I usually have a game lasting around four hours. I never checked turns. I'll agree that quick games are always losses, though. At least you know before wasting too much time.

It's those close ones that bug me. I think I'm going to prevail, and then another wizard starts pounding me and takes away my edge. I've had games that were like WW1, where everything I built was destroyed holding off AI hordes. I know that I'm losing slowly, but can't get a leg up. The tension is fun, but the time spent for outcome is not.

	15-07-2003 13:43									#5
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i get irritated as heck when i waste what little lead i have defending myself from random mobs. then, when i finally rebuild my cities and get my first decent hero, some fool starts casting armageddon or great wasting.

i also hate when i have a "perfect" starting island (enough for maybe 4-5 cities, each one spaced for max production, building availability, and access to water) and the computer players either build colonies there or have their own cities just close enough so that i can't build.

as far as I know, there's only 1 honest "blitz" strat (11 life, stream of life.) i've cheated a number of times and eliminated everybody with summoned creatures and such, but there just doesn't seem to be a way to get around building a ton of crap in the early game.

	16-07-2003 17:03									#6
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quote: Originally posted by da_hal as far as I know, there's only 1 honest "blitz" strat (11 life, stream of life.) i've cheated a number of times and eliminated everybody with summoned creatures and such, but there just doesn't seem to be a way to get around building a ton of crap in the early game.

The latest FAQ has a very convincing writeup on using guardian spirits with invulnerability, bless, plane shift, and endurance.

I'd say my games take fewer turns, but a lot more real time, than others are reporting. One of the handicaps I give myself is not to use enchant item or create artifact, so I have to rely on lots of regular units instead of clearing the map with an uber-hero.

	16-07-2003 21:58									#7
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yeah that might be my problem: i love my heroes too much.

But I have tried it with buff units, and it also takes a super long time, turn-wise, assuming you only have 3-5 moderately built up cities, 1-2 of which are actually producing units and the others are farming.

The problem with that strat is getting the mana to support even 1 stack of spelled-up units. With heroes, I can use one buff dude to clear a node, use the node to support another hero, etc.

It seems like a catch-22: you can't put more spells on units unless you take nodes, and you can't take nodes unless you have many buff units.

When i say "long time" in MoM terms, that means when any of the computer players have SoM, or one of the crappy global ultra-rare spells that spoil the game, like armageddon. Maybe I am being unrealistic in my expectations.

	22-07-2003 15:09									#8
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Try buffing your units without spells - by Warlord, Adamantium weapons and Experience. Cast heroism on an arms master hero or try to make him gain levels. Stack the newly produced units with the arms master until they become ultra elite. Very good way to do the same is if you have the Altar of Battle, but you may not be lucky to have it.

8 ultra elite adamantium troops with a leadership hero can take over almost everything without much effort.

	23-07-2003 09:43									#9
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the new mom faq has some very interesting strats. i did the guardian spirit thing for a little bit last night...works pretty good, although i dunno how they got enough mana to support 2 gs's, 2 endurance, and 2 invulnerability.

i think i'm going to try the pathfinding basilisk strat, that sounds way more interesting.

	23-07-2003 11:50									#10
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I read the strat - It sounds good ; the only possible problem may be if you encounter a wizard with many books in sorcery like Jafar. For sure he'll try to dispel your invulnerability and will have a pretty good chance of success with "dispel magic true". Btw what version are you playing? If you are playing 1.31 then the 11 life books should generate 11 mana per turn for you, if you pick elves, you will have 13 - that should be enough.

Last edited by bakalov on 24-07-2003 at 12:53

	24-07-2003 06:44									#11
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My games are usually complete in acouple of hours.

ACK!

	24-07-2003 12:56									#12
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He was asking how much game turns does they take ... Look at your Historian and see which Year and Month it is when you are finishing the game ;-)

	24-07-2003 14:40									#13
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there are 12 months in a year, so year alone is a good estimate. the guy in the faq said he could finish the game in 5 game years (@60 turns).

i tried the basilisk strat. those guys are pretty weak.

i think with the GS strat you have to stockpile some mana first, and then send them out.

for some reason, the computer busts out great wasting, armageddon, or SoM by y30 or so. usually by that point, i just got summon champion and maybe outfitted 1 of them with artifacts.

i think i need to try more extreme tactics.

	25-07-2003 12:47									#14
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Hm, for speed purpose you shouldn't ... Play elves for the extra mana, put all of your power into mana to get 13 per turn, raise your taxes, put your city to make trade goods and use alchemy each turn to get more mana. Your mana probably will be enough to pump out 2 spirits. Look for undefended locations as they could often yield 50 free mana. Taking over a weakly defended node can solve your problems too. After banishing a wizard you will probably take a lot of mana from him.

This tactics probably will bring the fastest possible win but it is a very risky because there is a high possibility to meet something that you cannot beat with an invulnerable guardian spirit. The invulnerability is like adding ~7 defence (7*0.3 = 2.1, invulnerability blocks 2), so you should keep from creatures with high attack and many to hit bonusses.

	25-07-2003 13:14									#15
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If you are getting the summon champion so late then you must be doing something wrong. I personally like to start with 4 life books and then to go multi-colored by getting some books from those heavily defended nodes on Myrror. If you are multi colored you have far greater potential for trading spells with the other wizards. You can even get great spells like Summon Champion for a stupid cantrip like Star Fires for example.

The question always is how to get those nodes, and according to my experience the fastest way to do so is to make some very tough normal units - with adamantium, experience and warlord. Try making 2 or 3 cities to share the same spot of adamantium if you do not have so much patches of it around. Summon heroes until you find an Arms master and cast heroism oh him. Stack with him all of the newly produced units until they become ultra elite. Once they become stack them with a leadership hero and send them to fight those nasty beasties. Once your machine for ultra elite adamantium troops is started no one will be match for you. And if by any chance you get the Crusade spell then you can make your normal troops champions which is one level higher than ultra elite and they will become really insane.

	26-07-2003 20:32									#16
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usually once i get 1-2 buff heros, the game is over in about 5 years, 1-2 if i ignore nodes and just try to eliminate the other wizards. the problem for me is the beginning game.

1. lack of money: the more buildings you build, the less money you have because of upkeep. is there a point where i should start expanding before i build all the buildings?

2. lack of research: when i try to expand early, i usually don't build libraries, so the only research i'm getting is from mana.

3. lack of mana: if i don't expand with elves or build buildings with other races, i can't get mana.

4. lack of units: no money to support them. usually i have enough food.

5. overrun by wandering monsters: seems like i'm never strong enough in the early game to take out even the easy nodes or neutral cities. if i try, even if i suceed, i lose x amount of units and this means losing xXy number of turns of production.

usually, once i get one city with all the buildings, i'm in good shape because i can use alchemy and turn all the gold into mana, set mana to 0 storage/0 research, and just put all of it into skill.

	28-07-2003 13:02									#17
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I will try to answer your questions, though my answers will be applicable only with Life Magic (Best with 4Life, Archmage, Alchemy, Warlord). You have 3 more. On arcanus I would drop the archmage or the alchemy and get 1N 1C 1S + Node mastrtery. Else I would get Myrran and dwarves.

1. The spell "Just Cause" - always take it from the beginning and cast it immediately. It has the undocumented effect to pacify one rebel per city. This allows you to increase your taxes one level without getting additional rebels. Garrison some cheap units that require only food to reduce rebels further (2 units pacify one rebel).
Use the worlds' resources - build your cities near gold, silver mithril, quork, etc. It is very important to do so if you play dwarves as they double these bonusses.
Do not scout with your starting units - scout with a magic spirit. They are pacifying one rebel if they stay in the city.
Fame - the fame reduces the payment for your armies - when you have troops 1 fame = 1 gold per turn, Just Cause gives 10 fame. You get a better chance for hiring heroes too. Try to keep your gold over 100 most of the time.

I usually use the following order:
Granary -> MarketPlace -> Farmers Market ->Miners Guild -> (may be Shirine here) -> Sawmill -> Forester's Guild -> (Library -> Sages Guild -> Alchemist guild, if the city has adamantium or mithril) -> Military buildings till fighters guild -> units & settlers, 2 cheap units to guard each new city.

2. I do not care about my research early in the game. I am putting it to zero. The spells that I will research when I start making troops are Endurance, Holy weapon and Holy armor.
If you are lucky and get a sage, cast heroism on him and you will have your desired early research ;-)

3. I am usually putting into mana only so much that I can cover the maintainance for my spells. The other part goes to casting skill. The mana for casting I am getting from alchemy. These things work very well with Alchemy and Archmage retorts.

4. Look what I said about fame - try always killing 4+ stacks for the extra fame. Heroism on a legendary hero will increase your fame significantly too.

5. If you are warlord, your starting units will be strong enough to hold the raiders for a lot of time.

	28-07-2003 13:27									#18
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wow i did not know that about fame, thanks

the strat i'm using now is regular build order (similar to yours) then buildings up to pikemen (or whatever armouries allow you to build.) for nomads, the pikemen are attack 6, 6 or so figures, and start as regulars. they are much stronger vs undeads who are immune to missiles, and are pretty solid against the harder random mobs too, like air elementals.

also, i'm expanding with 0-1 defending units. with taxes at 1.5, i have 0 unrest until the 5th population pt, so that's plenty of time. even then, i can slip in a shrine instead of sending another unit there.

i'm also using artificer/runemaster...it's a little harder in the early going without alchemy, but i can get heroes up and out in half the time. i use 3s/3n/3c, so i usually get guardian wind, flight, stoning, flaming on my crafted items.

	28-07-2003 16:10									#19
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If you are using artificier/runemaster you can gain mana by constantly creating items and then melding them - this way you can gain mana equal to your casting skill. Garrison the spell casting heroes in your fortress city to increase your skill and this way the generated mana.

I am trying to maintain my taxes at least at 2.0 which with dwarves is actually 4.0 because they double the tax income.

Also I would take Node mastery too with your spell books. The double power income from nodes should not be underestimated (besides ceasing the dispelling effects of the nodes, which makes them easier to obtain). It is one of my favorite picks :-)

	28-07-2003 16:33									#20
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I like your style, bakalov, and do a lot of the same tricks. Dwarves are a great race, but I think halflings give a faster start, since ranged attack units are somewhat overpowered in this game.

My usual start: LLLLCNNSS, Alchemy and Node Mastery (starting spells: just cause, endurance, heroism, web, phantom warriors). I immediately start building an armory, raise the tax rate to 2, using the two starting units to keep the city pacified. I then go to the magic screen, use alchemy to change 20 gold to mana, set the sliders to 5/2/2, and cast magic spirit. Then I hit "next turn" twice, start exploring with the magic spirit, and immediately summon a second one to help explore. The magic spirits can usually find a nice trove of gold and mana in empty lairs, which I invest in Just Cause and rushbuying shields on my slingers. Once my armory is finished, I build a pair of slingers, cast endurance on them, and use them to conquer the neutral cities on my continent. Against 1-move units, two-move slingers are just unstoppable. Hold your fire until the bad guys are within two squares (to avoid to-hit penalties for long range), then kill a couple of them. When they move adjacent to the slingers, move the slingers back one square and fire again. You can take all 6 shots this way, but it will rarely be necessary.

The neutrals should provide plenty of cash to support your growing army of slingers, who can then start taking out nodes (phantom warriors, phantom beasts, and nagas are the easiest, but even some of the really strong, slow creatures can be beaten if you have enough slingers).

	28-07-2003 17:33									#21
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Yes, when I am playing on Arcanus I use the halflings too :-) Even heard about someone who played them directly as myrran to get the adamantium fast. You should try to get Warlord instead of the second N and second S. The extra level makes the slingers even tougher :-)

	29-07-2003 05:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by da_hal usually once i get 1-2 buff heros, the game is over in about 5 years, 1-2 if i ignore nodes and just try to eliminate the other wizards. the problem for me is the beginning game. 1. lack of money: the more buildings you build, the less money you have because of upkeep. is there a point where i should start expanding before i build all the buildings? 2. lack of research: when i try to expand early, i usually don't build libraries, so the only research i'm getting is from mana. 3. lack of mana: if i don't expand with elves or build buildings with other races, i can't get mana. 4. lack of units: no money to support them. usually i have enough food. 5. overrun by wandering monsters: seems like i'm never strong enough in the early game to take out even the easy nodes or neutral cities. if i try, even if i suceed, i lose x amount of units and this means losing xXy number of turns of production. usually, once i get one city with all the buildings, i'm in good shape because i can use alchemy and turn all the gold into mana, set mana to 0 storage/0 research, and just put all of it into skill.

Try 5 blue, two white and two green or red. You can then build artifacts that allow your heroes to both fly and be invisible. Invisibility will obviate the need for guardian wind as very few units will be able to target you, while flying will protect you partially or completely from any ground pounders. The best heroes to use with these advantages are archer types (Dervish and Elves), as they can avoid the vast majority of attacks and counterattacks by just rolling up close (but not touching) to their targets and nailing them with arrows.

Set mana collection to 100% until you have 38, then build a +1 sword and break it on the anvil for 75 mana. Set mana production to zero and keep building cheapish magic weapons and breaking them for a profit. Once you have a fair surplus, build a few artifacts that giv bonus spell points and give them to any magic casting heroes you get. Half of those points will add to your spell power (assuming that you keep the hero in your capital), which in effect is your mana income every turn. Mana problems are a thing of the past at this point.

	29-07-2003 14:00									#23
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well, breaking cheap weps seems ok, but if i wanted to get free mana i could just use momedit...i'm trying to figure out a non-buggy way to blitz.

the game i'm working now has 2 large continents separated by 1 square which has a strong ruin on it. i can build 6 total cities in relative safety by around year 10 or so.

2 of the 4 enemies are limited to a small continent, maybe 2-3 cities each. one of them, jafar, always gives me suppress magic, time stop, sky drakes, and more if i wait long enough. rjak doesn't give much, so i eliminate him early.

oberic is a problem though. he has about 20 cities on arcanus, and he keeps casting armageddon and great wasting which eat up my mana.

sssla is worse. he is alone on myrror, and usually casts planar seal by year 3 or earlier. he then takes over the entire plane (around 40+ cities) and starts casting SoM by year 15-20.

since this is just ridiculous, i cheated with the nature awareness cheat just so i can see him on the magic screen (nobody else has any contact with him because he casts planar seal so early, unless he puts a city on arcanus) and spell blast SoM.

how about this: what if i bum rush an entire plane and take their cities by year 10 rather than build my own?

	29-07-2003 16:09									#24
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Hm, can you post a saved game from the start of the game or as close to it as it is possible?

	29-07-2003 18:34									#25
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Here are two saves for a typical start with my wizard: just unzip it in your master of magic directory. It will overwrite your first two savegame slots so you may want to have backup of the originals. The first save is almost from the beginning, the second is somewhere at 1406.

Attachment: save.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	29-07-2003 22:08									#26
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k, will do...probably when i get home later after work. hehe it must seem like i'm hopeless at this game.

the game cheats so much i got used to using momedit, but recently i've decided to bite the bullet and try to go legit...it's painful though when i see the comp players with like 15+ starting picks and sky drakes by year 15.

i'm trying a new strat: 5s/2/2/artificier/runemaster, start a game with elves on an easily defensible starting island, room for 1-2 cities max. set mana to either all storage or 50/50 storage/skill. alchemize gold until there is around 2k, make one caster staff (with either stoning or guardian wind) one armor with magic immunity, and one amulet with flight (all of these with max attack, spell skill, movement, def in that order of preference.) trade for summon champion, get warrax. if it is before year 12, send him out to conquer wizards, weakest to strongest.

edit: after year 12, send him through some ruins to build experience.

	30-07-2003 03:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by da_hal well, breaking cheap weps seems ok, but if i wanted to get free mana i could just use momedit...i'm trying to figure out a non-buggy way to blitz.

Doesn't have to be cheap items. I start with the +1 sword then go to a +2 then +3. then keep spending more mana for more powerful items eventually I make a
+3 to hit, +3 to damage, with the two most expensive spell effects available. This cost 225 mana and returns 450.

Of course that is the Create Magic Item spell not the Create Artifact spell that I use.

ACK!

	30-07-2003 10:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Doesn't have to be cheap items. I start with the +1 sword then go to a +2 then +3. then keep spending more mana for more powerful items eventually I make a +3 to hit, +3 to damage, with the two most expensive spell effects available. This cost 225 mana and returns 450. Of course that is the Create Magic Item spell not the Create Artifact spell that I use. ACK!

I try to build items (to break) that can be built in the fewest number of turns possible while using up as much mana as possible (in that order). This keeps my spell queue clear in case something comes up, while maximizing my mana production.

	30-07-2003 12:13									#29
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bleah, the single city strat stank. it took till year 17 to finish building buildings.

	30-07-2003 14:32									#30
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k, i went back to that saved game i mentioned, and tried the breaking thing...it works pretty good. is it considered a legit strat?