15-07-2003 18:55									#1
	Diplomacy Screen Rant Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

When I play, I handle each turn the same way. At the beginning of the turn, I get into the diplomacy screen and make or break deals. Next, I move the units. Last, I make any adjustments to city production.

I think that I'm like most people - I like to play with 16 civs. Once all civs have been discovered, this can make the diplomacy part of the turn very time consuming. It doesn't need to be that way, but because of the graphic interface Firaxis provides us with for Diplomacy, it really detracts from the game.

I have some ideas for making Diplomacy Screen better:

1) Get rid of useless diplomacy options. Like on the initial contact screen when you contact a civ with whom you are at war. Do the options "Our troops approach your cities..." or "We have overextended ourselves...." yield any different results than just going right in and working a deal? And "Lets exchange World Maps\ROP..." from this screen will never get you a better deal than going inside and negotiating, so why bother with it here?

2) Tell it to me straight. If The Domestic Advisors advice of "We're close to a deal" is useless if a civ will not accept a deal other than "This is acceptable". So, if a civ has 120 gpt available for trade this turn, then show it on the screen, don't make me type in guesses for 5 minutes. Also, when putting something on your side of the table and choosing "What would you offer for..." or putting something from the civ on the table and choosing "What whould you need for...", make the civ give its absolute best offer. Right now, you have to tinker with the civs offer to get the true "best".

3) "They would never accept such a deal". If a civ will never trade its last resource "Furs(0 left)" don't present it as an option. Also , if a civ will not trade or gift you a city unless you are negotiating peace and have troops inside one of their city's radius, then don't present them as a trade option. Don't present military alliance choices that will give this response either.

4) PTW and Conquests F4 screen needs to be changed. If you only have 8 civs in the game, this screen is fine. However when you need to see the relations between 16 civs all at once, it is a pain to select one of the leaders and swap him 8 times with another leader face. Simply redesign the screen to fit 16 smaller faces.

4) CTL-D dimplomacy menu has to go. If the F4 screen was right, you could do all of your diplomacy just by going in and out that screen. Instead, you use ctl-d menu to select your civ. When you're done, you have to hit ctl-d again and arrow down to the next civ. After you do this 14 more times, your done for that turn.
Almost forgot - you can hit that tiny "D" button in the bottom right of the screen instead of ctl-d. You know that button, the one that you clicked on just a hair too far to the left and accidently ended the turn that time...

By the Middle Ages, these Diplomacy Screen shortcomings really bog down the game. If these thing were fixed, my Civ3 experience would be better. Just my 2 cents...

	15-07-2003 20:56									#2
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I kind of like the diplomacy screen options -- it adds flavor. I do have to agree about the "twenty questions" nature getting the best deal; of course, you only have to suffer through it if you are trying to get the best deal -- perhaps that's the point, "no pain no gain".

	15-07-2003 21:14									#3
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If you think 16 civs is a pain try 24. You can not keep track of what all of the relationships are. You would have to write them down.
They changed so fast, often on the same turn (peace, ok, boom they ally against you).

A table is need to handle it. I don't know if C3C with its 8 more civs will now mean 32 are allowed, but if so it is even more of a need.

Another problem that I had in AU402 game is when some civ comes to you for some embargo or such and you have no idea of the implications. I have no way to check on all the relations before I decide on what I should do.

	15-07-2003 21:35									#4
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24? Yikes.
16 civs alone is definitely a handful. Especially when it is one of those game where every AI civ in the world is fighting half a dozen nations or so. Other than looking at the war situation to see how it affects me, I find myself letting civs on other continents go about their business not really caring, or checking often, what they do aggression wise. (Outside of normal trade) I do interfere to occasionally sell cheap techs and give gold to keep an underdog in the fight against an AI burgeoning Superpower overseas, but that's about it.

I've tried a couple of the options when suing for peace, but have found when I make the demand "Our troops approach your cities .." I am told to "fly a kite" unless I am completely mauling the AI. And, observationally, it seems the AI civs with the higher aggression levels never respond to threats. It just seems easier to me to go in the second screen and find out what I can extort.

As far as determining what the AI relationships with other civs off screen are, if they can't fit every civ onto one screen, there should be at least something that indicates there are deals with civs not currently displayed. Maybe a line (such as the red war line) going to the "More Civs" button.

	15-07-2003 22:35									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal I've tried a couple of the options when suing for peace, but have found when I make the demand "Our troops approach your cities .." I am told to "fly a kite" unless I am completely mauling the AI. And, observationally, it seems the AI civs with the higher aggression levels never respond to threats. It just seems easier to me to go in the second screen and find out what I can extort.

And when you do get an offer from "our troops approach..." it is a really lame offer. You can go inside and work a much better deal than that if you want. Exactly. So what's the point of even having that as an option? Not to get too far off topic, but anytime the AI approaches you in between turns with an offer the offer is lame - why bother coding that into the game ? It just slows down the game...

	16-07-2003 06:11									#6
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I think they will need some tabs on a new screen. The tabs to allow us to see trade at a glance. Trade availability (who we can or can not trade with). Tab for diplomatic stuff.
Yes it got ugly when some civs where at war with as many as 20 civs at once. At least 18 would be at war with some civs at the worst of it. I once had 22 civs declare war on me. The pop ups for the alliances were very tedious.

	16-07-2003 06:33									#7
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Reading these comments reminds me how far AI and diplomacy has come since Civ I and Civ II...

Just for kicks, I've tested the logic of the program by offerring a variety of deals.

For example, I asked what the computer AI would want for one of their cities (size 1). It was the newest of their 30 cities. I offerred seven techs, all my luxuries and ALL of my cities (except capital of course)....and yes, the AI carefully weighed the offer and rejected it!

Another game, the computer AI wanted to offer me a tech. He asked for one of my techs and 600 gold. I countered with my tech and 200 gold...and upped it increments of 50...He kept saying "no" until it hit 600. Obviously, this was his magic number. I declined the trade, spent some gold until I had 50 in my treasury, asked for a meeting and tried to work the same trade - which he took but with only 30 gold! Why would he accept 30 gold when he would not accept 599 gold just moments ago? Obviously, the logic/programming is based on what I have in my treasury, but that probably could be better.

Many more examples of illogical decision making....

	16-07-2003 07:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Reading these comments reminds me how far AI and diplomacy has come since Civ I and Civ II... Just for kicks, I've tested the logic of the program by offerring a variety of deals. For example, I asked what the computer AI would want for one of their cities (size 1). It was the newest of their 30 cities. I offerred seven techs, all my luxuries and ALL of my cities (except capital of course)....and yes, the AI carefully weighed the offer and rejected it! Another game, the computer AI wanted to offer me a tech. He asked for one of my techs and 600 gold. I countered with my tech and 200 gold...and upped it increments of 50...He kept saying "no" until it hit 600. Obviously, this was his magic number. I declined the trade, spent some gold until I had 50 in my treasury, asked for a meeting and tried to work the same trade - which he took but with only 30 gold! Why would he accept 30 gold when he would not accept 599 gold just moments ago? Obviously, the logic/programming is based on what I have in my treasury, but that probably could be better. Many more examples of illogical decision making....

First off a CIV cannot trade a city unless it is negotiating a peace treaty (extortion). When CIv 3 first came out you could trade a city in normal diplomacy, but many would use this as an exploit and was changed in a patch (1.14f IIRC.) On your trade where it would accept less gold, its possible you or another civ researched the tech and cheapened the cost of the tech.

	16-07-2003 08:25									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

The only one that really frustrates me is renegotiation. Occasionally I have a gpt deal with an AI for a while and it pops up for renewal. I feel the trade is no longer advantageous to me as is, and determine I should renegotiate for a better deal on my part. The moment I go into the second screen, the deal which is currently in play – the deal that they accepted in the first screen - is now suddenly deemed an insult. So not only do I not get a better deal, I get no deal.

	16-07-2003 10:41									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

That deal was accepted 20 turns ago which could be a lot of years. Things could have changed, so you take your chances by renegotiating. Some times I get a better deal others they are not so happy.

	16-07-2003 13:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber First off a CIV cannot trade a city unless it is negotiating a peace treaty (extortion). When CIv 3 first came out you could trade a city in normal diplomacy, but many would use this as an exploit and was changed in a patch (1.14f IIRC.) On your trade where it would accept less gold, its possible you or another civ researched the tech and cheapened the cost of the tech.

Ah...interesting. I've not installed the patch yet. I'm lazy...hadn't gotten around to installing it yet... Thank you for clarifying....

Regarding the gold, the example was within the same turn.