16-07-2003 09:45									#1
	Pope Pius XII Inflate your Upload Space

I'm not sure if we've done this one before or not, but do you think that Pope Pius XII should have publically denounced the Holocaust/Hitler, and damn the potential consequences? Or should he have done as he did, and oppose it quietly (if it all)?

And what effect do you think this would have had?

	16-07-2003 10:01									#2
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It's not so cut and dried, David Floyd.

Here's an excerpt citing several books in defense of the Pope and what he did do to save Jews in the Holocaust.

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). Could Pius have saved more lives by speaking out more forcefully?

According to Lapide, the concentration camp prisoners did not want Pius to speak out openly (p. 247). As one jurist from the Nuremberg Trials said on WNBC in New York (Feb. 28, 1964), "Any words of Pius XII, directed against a madman like Hitler, would have brought on an even worse catastrophe... [and] accelerated the massacre of Jews and priests." (Ibid.) Yet Pius was not totally silent either. Lapide notes a book by the Jewish historian, Jenoe Levai, entitled, The Church Did Not Keep Silent (p. 256). He admits that everyone, including himself, could have done more. If we condemn Pius, then justice would demand condemning everyone else. He concludes by quoting from the Talmud that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world." With this he claims that Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills (pp. 268-9). It should be noted that six million Jews and three million Catholics were killed in the Holocaust.

	16-07-2003 10:03									#3
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It's easy to say afterwards what should've been done.

If I would've been in the same situation as he, I would've done the same thing as he did.

	16-07-2003 10:05									#4
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Oh I agree that it isn't fully cut and dried, and I know that Pius XII did a lot behind the scenes.

The question that I'm asking is if he had a moral duty, based upon his religion, to directly and publically oppose Hitler and the Holocaust. In other words, what would Jesus do?

I think that he did have that duty, as the religious leader of the largest Christian denomination in the world, representing hundreds of millions of people. Whether it would have provided the best outcome is something entirely different, and I don't know enough about wartime Germany to know what affect it would have on German opposition to Hitler. As I recall, much of the opposition to Hitler was Catholic in nature anyway.

	16-07-2003 10:22									#5
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quote: In other words, what would Jesus do?

Excellent question.

quote: I don't know enough about wartime Germany to know what affect it would have on German opposition to Hitler.

That's the first consideration you have to make. One place you should start is to search for the word Kulterkampf, to get an idea of the relationship between the German state and the Catholic church.

One of the problems with being a Pope in Pius' situation is that you also have a duty to the Catholics in Germany. Is it right to speak openly against Hitler, and risk the death of many of the flock?

	16-07-2003 10:24									#6
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quote: One of the problems with being a Pope in Pius' situation is that you also have a duty to the Catholics in Germany.

Sure, but wouldn't you say the primary duty of the Pope, or any other Christian, is to promote morality and Christianity?

If the question is "What would Jesus do?", I think it's probably clear that he would have spoken out, wouldn't you say?

	16-07-2003 10:33									#7
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quote: If the question is "What would Jesus do?", I think it's probably clear that he would have spoken out, wouldn't you say?

Not with the risk to the Catholics in Germany from Hitler. Jesus, as the Good shepherd, has a responsibility to protect his flock, as do the priest their own congregations.

If the pope would be the only one to suffer from his decision, than the pope should have spoken out more.

	16-07-2003 10:52									#8
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quote: Jesus, as the Good shepherd, has a responsibility to protect his flock, as do the priest their own congregations.

But again, don't you think Jesus would say that there is a higher calling to promote what is right and just, rather than what will save lives? That is, wouldn't Jesus say that since these people are Christians, they ALL have a duty to speak out, and take whatever risk is there?

	16-07-2003 10:59									#9
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quote: That is, wouldn't Jesus say that since these people are Christians, they ALL have a duty to speak out, and take whatever risk is there?

There has to be a balance, with the ideal of telling the truth out of love. It is one thing to take risks for yourself, but entirely another to encourage others to take risks.

I've faced this conflict myself. I have no qualms myself with facing persecution, but having others hurt someone that I love because of the words I have said causes me great anguish.

I see the pope facing this conflict, that if he were to admonish Hitler, he could condemn millions more of the people who trusted him to their death.

	16-07-2003 11:03									#10
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*shrug* Possibly, but I think that Jesus would expect each Christian to take a Christian stand against the Holocaust, right? If each Christian were living up to this expectation, then any one individual couldn't be said to be putting anyone else at risk, right?

	16-07-2003 11:06									#11
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quote: If each Christian were living up to this expectation, then any one individual couldn't be said to be putting anyone else at risk, right?

Exactly. Would the holocaust have happened if all the Christians in Germany opposed him right from the start? How many Christians did nothing for the Jews during the holocaust?

Instead, we have a Pope who managed to save a huge number of Jews, and we accuse him of sloth. Seems we have our magnifying glass pointed in the wrong direction.

	16-07-2003 11:10									#12
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Oh, you're absolutely right about that.

	16-07-2003 11:26									#13
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Pius XII does get a bit of a bad press.