17-07-2003 08:18									#31
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I think Cloud9 also forgot that Microsoft owns part of Apple.

	17-07-2003 08:19									#32
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quote: So you only use Mac for the OS? You don't care about the hardware of the computer or anything?

Yes. Why would I care about the hardware?

	17-07-2003 08:19									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Though Linux Geeks will continue to post silly little news stories in hopes that their zealot OS finally "beats the bad guy."

Patience. These things don't happen overnight.

	17-07-2003 08:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I call bullshit! * Asher kicks you in the groin for thinking everyone here is dumb enough to buy into that.

Unfortunately only an idiot would believe anything you say.

Go take a pill.

	17-07-2003 08:20									#35
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quote: Fez: "Competition is a weapon to increase production" - Che Guevara.

What a hypocrite...

Competition is integral in capitalism... not communism.

	17-07-2003 08:21									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Unfortunately only an idiot would believe anything you say. Go take a pill.

You put up a bunch of numbers without citing, so I think Asher is in a good position to call it bullshit.

	17-07-2003 08:22									#37
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quote: Yes. Why would I care about the hardware?

Ok, then... don't you also think that perhaps Apple users everywhere might benefit if it had a competitor on Apple hardware? Instead of Apple trying to prevent any 3rd parties from doing anything to help the user?

	17-07-2003 08:23									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Windows is an objectionable piece of software from a user's perspective but not half as objectionable as the MS monopoly which has prevented users from enjoying the benefits of a competitive market in OS software.

Hey, here's a tiny little flaw with that argument:
You and Cloud9 both demonstrate that this simply isn't true. You both, after all, are completely moronic when it comes to computers but both have figured out how to acquire competitive OSes, namely MacOS and Linux.

Why don't you sit on that for a while before you tell us MS prevents users from using other OS software?

Further, why don't you look at how hypocritical such a stance is when you buy computers from Apple, who has honestly prevented users from enjoying the benefits of a competitive hardware market by forcing those companies out of business?

quote: If you want to know how bad MS is just look at IE for the Macintosh. Almost nobody used it because it was so bad.

That's bullshit -- everyone I know at school with an iBook used IE. Most now use Safari, because it's precious Apple. IE on Mac is usually considered to be even better than IE on Windows.

quote: Finally, in desperation, Apple got hold of Konqueror and modified it to run on OS X.

Apple got ahold of Konqueror because MS told them a year ago it was discontinuing the "standalone" IE, both on Windows and on MacOS, and it (rightfully) decided it needed an alternative.

Nice spin attempt, though.

Agathon, this ain't no philosophy thread, we need to stay grounded in the realities of our world.

	17-07-2003 08:23									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I think Cloud9 also forgot that Microsoft owns part of Apple.

I think Ted Striker forgot that MS bought this stake in Apple because they were worried about the DOJ.

People who can't understand why Linux will thrash Windows don't understand economics. Businesses use MS software because it was artificially cheap in that you could pirate one copy of word onto all your machines. Now MS is preventing people from doing that by installing spyware on your machine.

And why on earth would any business owner put themselves at the mercy of one supplier if they could help it?

	17-07-2003 08:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Unfortunately only an idiot would believe anything you say. Go take a pill.

I just took three!

You're the one that quoted patently bullshit figures, suspciously without a source.

You are a stunning example of why Philosophy people are laughed down upon on campuses all across the world.

	17-07-2003 08:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You put up a bunch of numbers without citing, so I think Asher is in a good position to call it bullshit.

The only reason Asher is in a good position to talk about bullshit is that the dirty dog smells it's own smell first.

The guy is a dope when it comes to economics and business anyway.

	17-07-2003 08:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Now MS is preventing people from doing that by installing spyware on your machine.

Source.

And surely they would go to Apple.... NOT!

	17-07-2003 08:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's why I and all other rational computer users support the adoption of Linux as a means to freeing users from a destructive monopoly.

You're speaking for all rational computer users?

I've used every OS known to mankind but nobody, I mean nobody, comes as close to XP as having a usable, service desktop.

	17-07-2003 08:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The guy is a dope when it comes to economics and business anyway.

A communist is in no position to talk about economics and business. He is an illiterate about the subject.

So concede defeat, commie.

	17-07-2003 08:26									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Source.

My copy of Office looks around the network to make sure I'm not running multiple copies. Apparently rumour has it that it also "phones home" every so often.

	17-07-2003 08:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Yes. Why would I care about the hardware? Ok, then... don't you also think that perhaps Apple users everywhere might benefit if it had a competitor on Apple hardware? Instead of Apple trying to prevent any 3rd parties from doing anything to help the user?

Actually, they do. IBM and Motorola both make processors for the Mac platform. Although Moto is looking to sell its semiconductor business to another company. When that happens, it's very likely that the other company will pick up where Moto left off and hopefully do a much better job than Moto by putting a lot of R&D $ into its semiconductor business.

	17-07-2003 08:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I've used every OS known to mankind but nobody, I mean nobody, comes as close to XP as having a usable, service desktop.

And you can predict how things would have been if MS didn't have a monopoly?

	17-07-2003 08:28									#48
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quote: People who can't understand why Linux will thrash Windows don't understand economics.

Really? Please educate the Economics B.A.'s here . Saying all businesses only use Windows and Microsoft products because it is easily pirated is one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever uttered .

	17-07-2003 08:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon People who can't understand why Linux will thrash Windows don't understand economics.

People who can't understand why Linux is not going to dominate don't understand economics.

If Open Source was genuinely cheaper, don't you think more people would use it?

Look at how many billions of dollars IBM invests in Linux. They just hired some hundred more software engineers the other day to develop PowerPC Linux products because they underestimated the laziness of the open source development community, no one was making the code they thought they would.

Netscape just fired its main 50 software engineers for Mozilla and spun off all copyrights to the Mozilla foundation.

A simple analysis of the situation will tell you that Open Source is not the holy grail. It's another way to approach computing products, it's certainly not better (nor is it worse, mind you).

It's just not effective in most cases.

Surely you'll make the case about how Linux is increasing marketshare in the server/workstation market? Windows is increasing as well, faster in fact when you take into accout volume...

You also grossly underestimate the support/services aspect. Hell, Dell was just given hundreds of millions on a contract with the US Government and all they're doing is providing support.

The upfront cost of the software is a tiny factor in TCO.

	17-07-2003 08:28									#50
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quote: Ok, then... don't you also think that perhaps Apple users everywhere might benefit if it had a competitor on Apple hardware? Instead of Apple trying to prevent any 3rd parties from doing anything to help the user?

I can see it both ways. Sure, it would be nice for customers if a lower cost hardware alternative existed that ran Mac OS. Then again, Apple is dependent on hardware sales to survive, so allowing clones to take over the market might end up killing off the Mac OS entirely. Also, having to design the Mac OS for innumerable hardware configurations might turn Mac OS into bloatware like XP. A diverse choice of hardware isn't necessarily a good thing.

	17-07-2003 08:28									#51
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Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, Agathon.

	17-07-2003 08:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You are a stunning example of why Philosophy people are laughed down upon on campuses all across the world.

Only on campuses like your third rate agricultural college. Go to a real university and you'll find it's different. I've had several CS students in my classes.

Of course you have to be good to get in to such a university - so I'm afraid you're screwed.

	17-07-2003 08:31									#53
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quote: Apparently rumour has it that it also "phones home" every so often.

It does. You need to find the "Microsoft Database Daemon" and throw it in the Trash if you don't want to be spied on. Threw mine away a while ago and it greatly improved my system performance.

	17-07-2003 08:31									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The only reason Asher is in a good position to talk about bullshit is that the dirty dog smells it's own smell first.

"Takes one to know one!" How swell, Agathon, you soar to new heights.

quote: The guy is a dope when it comes to economics and business anyway.

If you removed the "a", you'd be absolutely correct. I've clearly got a better understanding of the economics and business world than you.

	17-07-2003 08:31									#55
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quote: Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, Agathon.

Yes they do. I don't see how you can deny this obvious fact.

	17-07-2003 08:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If Open Source was genuinely cheaper, don't you think more people would use it?

It's not just the price, there are issues of compatibility etc. You know this so stop trolling.

quote: Look at how many billions of dollars IBM invests in Linux. They just hired some hundred more software engineers the other day to develop PowerPC Linux products because they underestimated the laziness of the open source development community, no one was making the code they thought they would.

Your point being? I'm not one of these digital anarchists. I think it's great that IBM is investing money in Linux. Everyone benefits.

quote: A simple analysis of the situation will tell you that Open Source is not the holy grail. It's another way to approach computing products, it's certainly not better (nor is it worse, mind you).

Better for some, worse for others.

quote: It's just not effective in most cases.

I never said it was. You must have mistaken me for someone else.

quote: Surely you'll make the case about how Linux is increasing marketshare in the server/workstation market? Windows is increasing as well, faster in fact when you take into accout volume...

We'll see. My claim is that Linux will dominate sooner or later. Give it 5 years and then come back.

	17-07-2003 08:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Only on campuses like your third rate agricultural college. Go to a real university and you'll find it's different. I've had several CS students in my classes. Of course you have to be good to get in to such a university - so I'm afraid you're screwed.

Jerry! Jerry!!

	17-07-2003 08:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Only on campuses like your third rate agricultural college. Go to a real university and you'll find it's different. I've had several CS students in my classes.

The UofT sucks for CompSci. The UofC kicks their ass in the ACM Programming Championships...

And the UofC isn't an agricultural college...hell, we don't even offer agricultural courses (IIRC, Saskatchewan is big on that).

It's a geomatics/geology/geophysics/medicine school mostly, with a great CS department.

	17-07-2003 08:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I think Ted Striker forgot that MS bought this stake in Apple because they were worried about the DOJ.

Who cares about the reason. They own part of it, plain and simple. Though the version I remember at the time that "Apple was in trouble."

quote: People who can't understand why Linux will thrash Windows don't understand economics. Businesses use MS software because it was artificially cheap in that you could pirate one copy of word onto all your machines. Now MS is preventing people from doing that by installing spyware on your machine.

Ahh yes, I've heard this argument since 1995. Over and over again. "We'll have our day!!!" Well. I'm waiting.

I have NEVER worked for a company or a school that didn't keep track of every single license of software they use. The penalties for pirating software far outweigh trying to get away with it and saving a few bucks. Trust me I've seen it happen.

Secondly it's only geeks that think Linux will overtake Microsoft. Geeks can't think mainstream because they are geeks. They accept standards other people don't play by. When I see the word "GNU" then honestly the first thing I think of is the word, "mediocre."

The user interfaces are unattractive. The distributions are bloated and nonintuitive, and not tested for enterprise level work. And the only apps that DO have a chance are lucky to have had millions of dollars of corporate backing by IBM and Oracle. And then you still have to pay ALOT for IBM's and Oracle's software on Linux anyway.

The distributions that are intuitive owe their success to copying Windows-like interfaces.

	17-07-2003 08:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, Agathon. Yes they do. I don't see how you can deny this obvious fact.

No they don't. A real monopoly is one like the Kuwaiti Petroleum Company (or something along those lines). It is the only company that does oil extraction in Kuwait.

Microsoft has Linux... and since Apple puts out Mac OS it is also considered a competitor.