18-07-2003 17:07									#1
	Drafting the GS-RP Agreement Got spare money?

Someone needs to do this. I can work on this tomorrow if someone else hasn't already done it, but whoever does it (I know I'd need this) is going to need a good bit of guidance from others on how to word it and what to include.

Keep in mind that GS will highly value CLARITY over flourish and will greatly dislike any hint of legal wrangling. So regardless of how we construct it and what we put it, it should at least be worded such that it sounds clear and to the point.

Alright, I'll check back sometime tomorrow... (hope we actually HAVE poly then... though I doubt it).

	18-07-2003 18:50									#2
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I sincerely hope that becoming vassals to the Egyptians is not our answer to this war.

I for one would rather be wiped out than survive only as a Persia-like semi-autonomous state without any real power, totally under the thumb of some damnable Egyptian bureaucrats who could care jolly well less about what the Spanish people need.

Lord Toledo

	19-07-2003 04:12									#3
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I think we should try to talk closely with the Arabs. THey must realize that our lands are of extremely little use to teh CHinese without them taking over ARabia too. Once Arabia comes to their senses and realizes this, they will switch sides.

Daniel de la Civ

	19-07-2003 04:48									#4
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H, we willnot be completely under GS'es thumb. We will be equals. GS is even considering a "joint RP-GS victory"

We have little choice now other than asking ND what kind of peace terms they want. Maybe giving them Santiago is enough? We have to find out. I have to work this evening and Togas and Arnelos will be away as well; we will hold the save till Saturday now.

	19-07-2003 05:13									#5
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I'm going to draft the treaty to be more of a "partnership", though we can recognize GS as the "senior partner" if needed.

Indeed, we are currently working with GS on pursuing what we would recognize as a "joint victory" sorta like the ones you have when you played Risk with your buddies in elementary school (where two guys gang up on everyone else and then declare joint victory when they've split the map).

	19-07-2003 05:51									#6
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I don't know. I want to hear more concrete demands from Egypt before I say anything more.

As for ceding Arabia Santiago, I am against this. They betrayed us. If Egypt comes in on this war, we will be demanding cities from Arabia, and not the other way around.

Whatever happens, Spain will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered!

Lord Toledo

	19-07-2003 12:07									#7
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Arnelos sent me a draft of the agreement. Here it is:

quote: Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain Purpose The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain. Article I - Non-Aggression 1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other. 2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other. Article II - Sharing of Luxuries 1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power. 3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to. Article III - Partnership in Technological Research 1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation. 3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm. Article IV - Wonders of the World 1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct. 2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not. Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance 1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner. 2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory. 5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans. 6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall. Article VI - Exchange of Territory 1. Areas along the Eastern shore of the continent Bob in Spanish possession which the nation of the Gathering Storm wishes shall be transferred from Spanish possession to the possession of the Gathering Storm. 2. Spain shall keep its lands in Cow Valley and the rest of Western Spain. 3. Spain shall be awarded any lands claimed by the Partnership through conquests in Neu Demogyptica with the exception of any Neu Demogyptican lands along the Eastern coast of the continent Bob which the nation of the Gathering Storm wishes to claim. 4. The details of the territorial exchanges in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be worked out by the partners and jointly agreed upon at a time determined by the nation of the Gathering Storm. The partners swear upon their honor that they shall do their best to work out a mutually acceptable exchange by the above guidelines and then execute the exchange. 5. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners. NOTES: * note: Should there be a clause in Article III about contributing research to the partnership and cases where the slider may be moved to 0% science because of a need for cash, etc.? Or can we just trust each other to work that out cooperatively? It's up to you. * note: Should there be an article about money and gifts/loans or can we just handle that as situations arise and on the basis of mutual trust and cooperation? Also up to you. I did my best to try to keep the language clear and unambiguous, but there are a lot of bases to cover with such a sweeping agreement. Along those lines, I have the nagging feeling that although I've tried to cover all of the bases, there might be something I've left out of this agreement that could come back and be a source of disagreement between the partners. I've done my best to attempt to lay down a way for all such things to be resolved, but there might be some things I'm forgetting. If so, my hope is that we can cooperatively decide what to do about them as they are encountered. The ultimate goal of this agreement is to establish cooperation between our teams as a complete replacement for the antagonism that exists in general between all teams in this game. We are indeed serious about this being a binding agreement for the rest of the game, essentially a "locked alliance". Let me know what you think of it and send back any suggestions or requested edits.

	19-07-2003 12:43									#8
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Dang, that is too long.

We need to shorten it and keep it simple:

RP signs a NAP, MPP and Full Alliance with GS for the remainder of the game.

Both Teams will work in concert to obtain a "joint victory" for GS and RP.

There will be no secrets. All negotiations with any other team will be made available to the other team. No NAP's, MPP's, or Alliances may be signed by either RP or GS with any other team with out both RP and GS approving of it.

RP will, when appropriate and decided upon by both teams trun over control of the Souther and Eastern portions of Bob to GS.

GS will, when appropriate and decided by both teams; turn over control of land North of Pamplona on Bob to RP.

RP and GS will act independently but will cordinate all Military, Scientific and Expansion endeavors with each other.


Anyways, that's they way that I see that GS wants it.

	19-07-2003 12:50									#9
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The thing is... I tried to write it short, but there are simply too many bases to cover. If GS has a problem, they'll let us know. It's just a first draft, afterall

	19-07-2003 17:35									#10
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WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT!?!?!?!?

Surrender our eastern seaboard!?
Are you crazy! I'd rather spend my life as a slave in arabian iron mine than give our coastal cities.
Give them a foothold and soon enough they'll charge into cow valley as well! What IDIOT came up with these treasonous ideas!?

	19-07-2003 19:32									#11
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The only way, and I mean THE ONLY WAY for us to accept this is if we from the very start plan a reconquista of ALL OF SPAIN! First defeat our enemies then break this vassalisation and retake the eastern seaboard.
If that is the plan, yes. Else, I'll just declare Vigo a freestate and denounce all former loyalties. We are SPAIN! not some pathetic Luxians or Voxians...

	19-07-2003 20:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst The only way, and I mean THE ONLY WAY for us to accept this is if we from the very start plan a reconquista of ALL OF SPAIN! First defeat our enemies then break this vassalisation and retake the eastern seaboard. If that is the plan, yes. Else, I'll just declare Vigo a freestate and denounce all former loyalties. We are SPAIN! not some pathetic Luxians or Voxians...

LzPrst, your sense of honor and pride is commendable, but your sense of reason is faulty. You seem to believe that just because you will something to happen, it will be.

I cannot and will not make decisions on based only on what my pride demands of me. I must, and you Lords must, make decisions based on what is possible and what serves the greater good of our people, and not our egos.

Do you not think that we would even consider this pact if we had a fighting chance of winning this war?! Such beliefs assume that I and my general and my cheif advisors are cowards! Do you think we are cowards!?

I cannot and will not follow a stuborn and inflexible position in a time where Spain has NO bargaining power, and in a time where we face the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of our nation, our people, our culture, and our name!

The Reconquista is already in my thoughts and in my plans, as it should be in all of ours. We will heavily weigh the possibilities of breaking this Vassalization in the future and we may well do so long after I am gone. Vassalization is easy enough to break, RISING FROM THE DEAD is impossible.

Furthermore, you forget that I, as King, control the armies of Spain. Vigo cannot break away, and if it does, it will be defended soly by the untrained peasantry that lives there. You will be overwhelmed and easily killed. That is not the fate you deserve.

Release your pride, JOIN US in a joint defense of the capital and the region. We will reconquer Vigo together and place your family back in it's command after our new allies give us the strength to turn back the Moors!

--Togas

	19-07-2003 21:07									#13
	Got spare money?

I do not understand why your pride and sense of honour make you not want to accept help for Spain. My honour says "I have been betrayed! The kingdom has been betrayed!". There is nothing honorable about leting your wifes, sons and elder die at the hands of moors and warmongers. I would be much more pride if we managed to defeat them, to prevent them from achieving what they wanted. Our pride must be directed against the people who betrayed us, not against other nation that never has attacked or damaged us. Do you want to tell them who we the spaniards are? Me too! Spain is the country that is able to turn a completely lost and desesperate situation in a different one and to kick their buts. Go away moors and warmongers! You will not get a single inch of land from us. Even more, we will pursue you back to your own lands, and we will make you pay for what you have done to us!

That must be the result of our pride, not willing to commit suicide.

	19-07-2003 21:19									#14
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The kingdom was betrayed, and we should have seen it coming.

	19-07-2003 21:28									#15
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I agree with you, but this is not the moment to analyze why we didn't see it. At this moment internal fight and divisions harm all of us. It's the moment to stand united and to work for the best of the kingdom.

Later, if we survive, it would be very interesting to analyze what happened and why we didn't see it, if only to learn from our mistakes and not repeat them again. But now is not definitely the moment. That's why I am right beside the lords who want to defend Spain and its people rather than with the ones that want to make the country pay for the errors that we (its governors) commited.

	19-07-2003 21:35									#16
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I wasn't analyzing why we didn't see it, I was quietly suggesting that we should beware.