18-07-2003 17:42									#1
	CLASSIFIED: GS Agreement Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm just going to go ahead and on behalf of the whole team ask this of everyone.

It is IMPERATIVE that RP Team continue to display the role of a team which is being ganged up upon by 2 powers when in public. We must not display a level of overt arrogance or smugness that allows our enemy to suspect what just might lie in wait for them.

Ideally, we want the things we are going to do to surprise our enemies to be SURPRISES. We want to knock their friggin' socks off.

So, in our conduct in the public forums and in chats where anyone from a team OTHER THAN GS is present, we will remain dour, yet prideful in our valiant attempt to defend the doomed Spanish civilization.

As our losses come in from the battlefield, we will mourn them appropriately, curse the enemies who have caused them, fight on bravely, and pray for salvation. As surprises come up, we will let the enemy (as much as possible) come to their own conclusions. If Togas or we as a team decide a statement can/should be made that prods something about a surprise already revealed, that's fine, but we don't want to be gloating over the little surprises too much. We should certainly be trying to act naturally within the context of their existence, but ultimately the little surprises aren't enough... if that was all we had under our sleeve, Spain would still be doomed.

When and if GS legions start marching in our territory and we're fighting a joint war against the enemy, THEN and ONLY THEN should anyone even dare to mention that we have an agreement with GS in public (unless specfically authorized by Togas or the full House of Lords to share this information).

I really really really want to (metaphorically) see the look on GoW's faces (and ND's) when they start facing GS, Spanish, and perhaps even Lego armies.

Even then, we should NOT disclose the actual nature of our agreement with Gathering Storm. The only thing we can or should say is that GS has come to our aid (or Lego, if they do as well). If the situation calls for it and this is cleared for public discussion, perhaps we can even mention that we provided "payment" for the aid, but certainly not what the payment was.

Ultimately, I don't think it would be wise to divulge just what the nature of the agreement between Spain and GS is until it's absolutely obvious to everyone that some sort of long-term alliance has been worked out for the rest of the game. Until EVERYONE already realizes it, it's not to be uttered. This is because such an alliance is potentially so powerful for ending the game that if it is known to exist, ALL other powers will be obligated to gang up against it, including Legoland.

So it is absolutely imperative that it never be mentioned, especially to Legoland, but also to anyone else.

If we're going to join in a partnership with GS and try to jointly make sure they (and we with them) win the game, we don't want to mess it up by warning everyone! It works best when it hits everyone completely by surprise.

Besides... just control your temptation to spill the beans early for tiny pleasures and you can get LOTS AND LOTS OF ENJOYMENT if this thing is kept a secret, works out, and you get to watch the cries of surprise, shock, and exasperation on the part of our enemies when the truth is finally revealed naturally.

So PLEASE have some patience and keep this absolutely and completely classified.

We are the ROLEPLAY Team, damnit, and if we can't roleplay as a team which knows it's defeated and is just trying to valiantly struggle to the end, then no-one can.

So keep that in mind... this is how "roleplay" may end up saving our *sses in the end if we do it right and GS cooperates.

	18-07-2003 18:53									#2
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I'll do this, but only as long as the "benefits" of Egyptian rule aren't as restrictive as Togas made it sound. I don't want our civilization to be virtual slaves to their whim. I'd rather we were conquered totally by our enemies.

	18-07-2003 21:28									#3
	Re: CLASSIFIED: GS Agreement Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Besides... just control your temptation to spill the beans early for tiny pleasures and you can get LOTS AND LOTS OF ENJOYMENT

Should I be enthusiastic about mighty Spain begging to foreign powers? Must I be ecstatic that we will be consigned to the ranks of 2nd class power and 3rd class citizens on our own Bob?

I see no pleasure in any of this. I see only a life crushed under the heavy yoke of GS imperialistic expansionistic ambitions.When others are celebrating, allow me to mourn the death of an independent Spain.

	19-07-2003 05:41									#4
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I agree with your statement, Senor Where Its At! There is no "enjoyment" to be derived by such an insult to our national pride.

	19-07-2003 07:34									#5
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quote: Should I be enthusiastic about mighty Spain begging to foreign powers? Must I be ecstatic that we will be consigned to the ranks of 2nd class power and 3rd class citizens on our own Bob? I see no pleasure in any of this. I see only a life crushed under the heavy yoke of GS imperialistic expansionistic ambitions.When others are celebrating, allow me to mourn the death of an independent Spain.

I agree fully and tried to explain our position in the chat, but remember, we have moved to a more democratic form of government, and the majority believe this is the best for Spain....

(However, we hope it not to be so unfortunate, GS and Lego accidentally let us keep a little more than we should, and we stealthily reclaim our rightful positions as winner)

	19-07-2003 07:54									#6
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Right thing for Spain, eh? Ceding our lands? Taking orders from greasy Egyptian merchants?

I don't believe that they'll cut us a fair deal. They are in this for their gain, not ours. We made a mistake letting our government listen to China, and I do not intend that we make another such mistake.

We must have terms that give us as much power as possible. The ideal of our state becoming vassalized cannot and will not be tolerated.

Lord Toledo

	19-07-2003 09:14									#7
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I hate it too, but what can we do? we won´t be able to stand alone by ourselves with GoW & ND on our throats, and with GS admitting that tehy would love to split our coast! This is the best we can do, hold untill we can be in a position to backstab.
And after this if we survive I think we still can win. Remember, we still have a GA forward... and good teammembers. Besides, this proverbial piece of paper we are signing must mean the smae to us as our MPP meant to GoW... nothing. Use it while it suits you.

	19-07-2003 17:57									#8
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NW said my argument. I don't like the basic idea, but unless someone else can think of another way for us to survive, it's our best bet.

	19-07-2003 19:01									#9
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We cant get Lego and GS to intervene without vassalising ourselves? It is in their interests to keep Bob divided and weak. ND will become way too powerful and eventually they'll smash GoW as well. GS knows this, but they're using our COWARDICE to squease as much as they can out of us!
I WILL NOT ACCEPT VASSALIZATION!!!
Alliance yes, compensation to the Egyptian mercenaries, yes, bend over? HELL NO!!!

	19-07-2003 20:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Right thing for Spain, eh? Ceding our lands? Taking orders from greasy Egyptian merchants?

These lands are theirs in any case. They will get the lands from our agreement, of as spoils of war as soon as they realize that there will be no agreement and that we are death.

On the other hand, those arab lands can certainly compensate what we give to them.

As NW said, I also would prefer to stand them alone, but these cannot be possible. Lets touch with our feet on earth and see our REAL options.

	19-07-2003 20:50									#11
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Why can we not get these fat fellows into the war without first giving them power over us?

I will not live in a vassalized Spain. I will die before that ever happens.

Lord Toledo

	19-07-2003 20:55									#12
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Lord Toledo, if you would rather die than live in a Vassalized Spain, then you will die. The difference is, ALL OF YOUR PEOPLE and your family will die too.

I do not mind if any of you nobles have the honor and will to fight and die for your people. Making such a decision is noble, yes, but seeing to is that everyone you love and protect dies with you, THAT is irresponsible and reprehendable. It is ignoring the burden of leadership and thinking only of your pride. The burden of leadership is ensuring that what is best for your people is carried through, not what is best for your honor.

--Togas

	19-07-2003 20:58									#13
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My feelings are with all of you. I want to best for Spain, but sadly we have no choice. We should be happy that they are willing to help us, specially after we not doing anything to help them during the GS-Vox war.

If I've understood the treatys correctly, this will be a partnership. They will be the senior partnership, but this is reasonable because they will provide the greatest part and BECUASE WE NEED THEM.

	19-07-2003 20:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The burden of leadership is ensuring that what is best for your people is carried through, not what is best for your honor. --Togas

Very wise words

	19-07-2003 21:10									#15
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Damn it!
I see no other choices, but... vassalization
Surely our diplomats must be able to fetch us a better deal than the surrender of our eastern seaboard. 1 city as a base yes, a full annexation of our coastal cities?
It is too shameful

OOC btw where is the chat being held?

	19-07-2003 21:21									#16
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Lord Toledo... What is important now is to make those invasors pay for what they have done. We will destroy all their plans, and we will do it while keeping Spain alive and a future for our people. And the most important: They will regreet having done this!

	19-07-2003 21:23									#17
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Vassalize us, then. Send my people to the Egyptian dogs. Make the deal.

But remember to convert those pagans with your treaty. The oppresion of Christians in Egyptian lands cannot be allowed.

Lord Toledo

	19-07-2003 22:54									#18
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quote: OOC btw where is the chat being held?

apolyton.net:6667 #civ3rp Migros

us.undernet.org:6667 #civ3rp Migros

	21-07-2003 11:27									#19
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IMPORTANTE

GoW and ND will soon see that we have gifted 2 cities to Gathering Storm. They are going to assume that this is an act of desperation and a "cheap trick" on our part to keep them from taking cities which are rightfully theirs. They are going to insult us and call us cowards, etc, in the public forum.

The proper response to this is: So?! We'd rather give our cities to Gathering storm than allow you backstabbing Warmongers to posess them.

We must appear to be desperate and vengeful at the same time. So much so that we'd destroy or gift our cities away rather than let our invader receive the spoils of war.

We must not, in any way, give them any reason to think that this was done because of secret cooperation on our part with GS. If the topic lingers, Arnelos or BigFree may leak out accidentally that we offered 1 to Lego and 1 to GS, but Lego told us they couldn't accept any cities because of their Neutrality treaty.

GS, however, didn't seem to mind. If we're giving cities away, they'd take them. Free money.

--Togas

	21-07-2003 14:30									#20
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Perfect Togas!

	21-07-2003 20:13									#21
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Yeah, I talked this matter over with NYE and we agree that the best way to handle it is that Spain supposedly just didn't want ND and GoW to capture the cities, so we gifted them to GS (since GS wasn't turning us away).

On GS' end, their response when (because they will) ND and GoW ask them about the cities is that GS will negotiate custody of the cities once a clear victor arises in the war. Until then, GS will hold the cities in its custody.

This will hopefully encourage ND and GoW not to worry about the cities that much because they can buy them off GS at the end of the war with Spain, or perhaps even attack the GS cities once Spain is out of the way. In either case, it encourages GoW and ND not to attack the cities and not to suspect further GS involvement beyond accepting our cities into their temporary custody.

The other thing I discussed with Togas in one channel and was basically passing what Togas said to NYE in another and seeing how NYE reacted/responded was that ND and GoW will never get to see our "brief war" with GS whereby they are gifting us a city, we capture their catapults, then we give them the city back in the treaty and the catapults are moved to Pamplona. However, Vox and Lego will have a chance to notice on their turns, if they are observant, that Spain (light blue) owns a city buried inside GS (blue) and that we are at war with GS.

We can pray that Vox and Lego don't notice or that, if they do, they don't say anything. It's quite possible that they'll completely overlook it. However, in the event they DO notice, we're still working on a suitable cover story for that one...

Last edited by Togas on 21-07-2003 at 21:06

	21-07-2003 21:35									#22
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A good idea. I like this.

Besides, why on earth wouldn't we sell these cities to the Egyptians when the alternative is having them captured and used by those Chinese bastards?

Oh. Sorry. Just testing, you see.

Lord Toledo

	21-07-2003 22:26									#23
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quote: The burden of leadership is ensuring that what is best for your people is carried through, not what is best for your honor. --Togas

Are you sure that's how Medieval Lords did it? After all we are Roleplay

(meh, if worst comes to worst just say God told us to give them the cities...don't worry, the topic WILL linger )

	21-07-2003 23:29									#24
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I think medieval lords would act that way. Their motivation would be to hurt the invasors as much as they could. The cities are lost anyway, ok, we give them to the powerful nation, and with this we prevent the invasors form getting the cities, really pissing them.

	22-07-2003 05:49									#25
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A different version of the Luxian path, so to say...

Eta Tamali

	23-07-2003 17:35									#26
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As previously planned...

I have made a post responded to GhengisFarb's anticipated taunt regarding our gifting of cities to GS.

As planned, I went ahead and threw in the part about us offering to Lego and them turning us down.

PLEASE NOTE that that is really all we should say on the matter. Our story is that we gave the cities to GS out of spite, simply to force ND and GoW to declare war on an off-continent nation since we couldn't do anything better with the cities other than raze them.

When in doubt, don't post

Only reason I posted is that it I think GhengisFarb would believe it to be out of character for me to NOT respond to one of his barbs and I'd rather just do what I think he and others expect of me/us if we really were doomed.

Remember, in all things, keep the mental conception of us being "doomed" in your head when posting publicly until GS' armies have actually attacked the enemy. Until then, keep that concept as far away from your mind when posting publicly as possible

	25-07-2003 04:56									#27
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Bumping

E_T