18-07-2003 20:50									#1
	Rebuilding on Legos Minor Tired of ads?

I have not seen the save. I think we will come out of anarchy on the same turn that our units teleport to Legos Minor. We should select Despotism as the government since its anarchy period is the shortest. Our units will move that turn and four turns later we will have some of our cities settled. During that period we can use a few more revolutions finally ending up as Republic. If a period of anarchy ends just before our cities are settled we will need to make a decision whether or not to use one more revolution coming out maybe a turn after our cities are settled. Once we start the second revolution we can find out from the Domestic Advisor how long the anarchy will last and start discussing it.

In what follows I am using city names from Vonrack's map (here).

One batch of 3 settlers plus their escorts can move 2 east on the mountains. Then one settler breaks off to settler Poortown and the other two move south where they then split up to settler Orlando and New Orleans. If we are short on escorts this group could be done with just two. Once Poortown is settled we will know if there are any barbarians left in the area.

The Anchorage and Halifax group and move 2 north together before they split up.

Other settlers and escorts will be on their own.

A group of three workers should move one tile E of The New Voice and build a road on the mountain, then move S and build a road and mine on the hill. New Orleans can then start using the mine. The group then moves E to build a road and mine on the hill. This connects New Orleans and Orlando to The New Voice. After this the three workers split up to work the other hills in the area. I am using hills because all tiles produce one food and the hills provide the most shields (once improved).

Another group of three workers should move NW of The New Voice and road the grassland, then N on the hill to road and mine it, then N again to road and mine the hill. Then they split up to road the grassland areas (no mines yet).

The rest of the workers should move SW of The New Voice and chop the forest, then road and mine the underlying grassland. A few workers split off and go NW to the other forest. The rest move N to the grassland (roaded by the other group) to plant and chop a forest, then mine the grassland. This group then moves up plant/chop/road/mine the area around Anchorage and Halifax. A few break off to work the mountains while the rest move to do the same on the plains in the south.

The New Voice - Build market. Nothing else will be of much use for a while (with our science at 0). Then build a library. No need for an aqueduct for a while as this city will not be able to grow above size 6 before Electricity. Maybe a temple after the library.

Halifax - Build a harbor as it will be needed for growth beyond the first two citizens. Then build a library and an aqueduct. The order of the last two will depend on growth and where some of the forest chopping goes (Anchorage or Halifax).

Anchorage - Build granary, then harbor. Once these facilities are in place this city will grow every three turns. The city will be used to produce additional workers and feed them to other cities to help build them. To maximize growth Anchorage will stay at pop 6 or under for some time. After the harbor is built we can work on timing a library inbetween some worker builds. With any tiles still available for forest chopping I think it can be done.

Poortown - Build harbor. Then a library. The top end growth of Poortown is very limited so it will not get much benefit from an aqueduct or other major improvements. We should plan on this being a size 6 city.

The rest of the cities will build a harbor first as their growth is already stunted with one one food tiles. Then they build an aqueduct in preparation of the feeding of workers from Anchorage. As the city grows quickly it will need a temple and cathedral to handle the unhappiness and maximize the citie's laborers. We may want to pick one to concentrate on for growth and let the others build libraries first.

The best cities to push the growth on will be Halifax and New Orleans. Halifax has a couple of two food tiles so it's initial growth will be faster. New Orleans will get the first mined hill so it will get the harbor, and start growing, quicker than the other cities. With some plains available for forest chopping it can also complete improvements quicker.

We may have a bit of a blip when Anchorage starts building workers before the other cities are ready to receive them. That is OK. We will still have plenty of mountains to improve. If possible, I do not want to add workers to a city until it reaches size 7, to maximize the growth using its own food while the food box is small. Once it reaches size 7 we add workers to bring it up to size 12 (or what ever maximum the city supports) to get the most benefit from any improvements in the city. With mountains readily available we can stagnate the growth at size 12.

What should we have in around 40 turns when we finish Printing Press? The New Voice should be size 5 with a market and maybe a library (it will be close if it is not complete). Anchorage will have a granary and harbor and will already be in worker production mode. Halifax will be size 4 with a harbor and well underway on an aqueduct. New Orleans will be size 3, maybe 4, with a harbor and working on an aqueduct. Most of the other cities should be size 2, maybe 3, with their harbors complete. We may not be able to research Democracy very fast. Our research rate will start small and grow quickly during our Democracy research I do think we can research it in less than 40 turns (maybe 30). About the time Democracy is complete we will be pushing the rest of our cities up to size 12 and should be able to provide competitive research with the other civs (except for maybe the really big ones).

Our desert cities will be the last ones to be founded. I suggest we leave one or both disconnected from our iron (that means no roads or harbors) so they can produce warriors if Lego wants to do war games to try to produce a leader.

	18-07-2003 21:25									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looks good initially Harry. I won't be able to take an in depth look at your plan until tomorrow, but from just reading through once it looks like the way I'd do it. If I have any modifications I'll post here over the weekend.

	18-07-2003 22:16									#3
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Great idea concering the desert cities (having them be Warrior production cities for our war games.

	19-07-2003 05:44									#4
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Gone hiking and wrastling with grizzly bears and cougars.

	19-07-2003 06:01									#5
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OK - I did review the plan quickly. Looks good Harry! One theing to remember is that we have two galleys with settlers coming by sea, Save the two eastern coastal cities for them.

Note that the trailing galley may only be able to move one tile this turn. I can't recall.

Also - once all is well with the transfer - we can move our two remaining galleys - which are empty - towards our new homeland.

	20-07-2003 06:14									#6
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I looked at this with a little more depth and I do have a bit to suggest. I'll use the names from Vondrack's map as well, though I like Harry's Phoenix/New Hope naming suggestions.

I haven't seen the latest save, but based on the location of our two settler galleys in the 110bc save (and assuming Beta moved it the same as I would have) the leading galley should be only three turns away from either New Orleans or Orlando with the second galley five turns away. One of those cities will be able to be settled before all the others because of this, and the second one at I believe the same turn a settler would get there from The New Voice.

I would send the two settler contingent to Anchorage and Halifax like you said, and one to Poortown. I would send our last three settlers and escorts SW (1 on the keypad). One of those breaks off to Irony while the other two head south to Houston, where the last one heads SW again to Guadalajara.

Also keep in mind that we only have eight settlers and nine towns to settle on Legos Minor so a settler for Panama Vox will have to be created from one of the cities eventually (perhaps when the New Voice is finished the marketplace unless we want all the cities up right away? ). Panama Vox should be the last city we build of the nine because it is the furthest away and will suffer the most corruption. It could be a very important naval strategic point for us in later times, but it's not too important right now (and leaving it disconnected from iron sounds fine for wargames though we can still road the tiles south of it).

I'd also change the worker improvement order a little bit. We have 11 workers IIRC (BTW, when Beta is back I hope we can still continue having the saves sent to us as well...it would make it easier to verify this if I had the current save ). The three to the east and the three to the north are fine, but I'd change the last five around a little. I would send the five remaining workers to chop the SW forest to get that out of the way and then get a road in for Irony to work. Until the New Voice is big enough, Irony should work that tile to increase it's food production over what it would have from the coastline. But after that I would send two of the workers to building a road to Houston and Guadalajara. Those two towns would otherwise be working unimproved tiles for a while. All the tiles in those regions are one food until the harbors are up so they will be working the forest and hill tiles which provide no commerce. Getting a road to those cities will give them the ability to provide some gpt which we'll sorely need. It should only slightly slow down the tile improvement of the northern cities, but we'll have six other workers up there already. Those two cities shouldn't grow fast enough to outstrip the improvement pace of six industrious workers.

I think good worker/citizen management is going to be key for a while. We don't have a whole lot on this island right now, though once harbors are up we should be back in business. Until then though we should try and maximize all our citizens onto worked tiles if possible. Don't leave any on an unworked non-coast tile.

I think that's about all that I can see right now. If I think of anything else I'll post it.

	20-07-2003 06:31									#7
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I knew I would have to make some adjustments for the settlers on the galleys, once I got the save and saw where they were in relation to the new city sites.

As for the workers, either forest tile next to The New Voice is the same. I believe Irony can reach both of them. Getting the granary and harbor at Anchorage completed quicker will provide us more benefit in both growth and commerce than diverting a worker south to make roads. The three workers heading to New Orleans only need to get a couple of hill tiles roaded and mined to handle what those small cities will need for a while. A worker from that force can easily make a road on the plains and into the forest to provide Houston with commerce. Thanks for the second look and the idea about more roads for commerce in the south.

	20-07-2003 06:53									#8
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If my calculations are correct then the two settler galleys should be in good position to drop off settlers around the time we'd be settling the area anyway. The only other thing to do would be send the first galley on and drop off a settler near Guadalajara as that one will take the longest turn time to get to, but I think it's better to get New Orleans or Orlando going earlier.

There is only one forest up near Anchorage to chop. Oh wait, I get what you were saying earlier. Now that we have engineering you were planning on planting a new forest and then chopping that to get shield output going right? Good thinking, I missed that one. In that case though I'd change the worker order to road first, then plant, then chop, then mine. That way if we need to move a worker somewhere else suddenly it will start from a road instead of an unworked tile.

	20-07-2003 22:53									#9
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Yes, plant and chop. I did not mention a specific order (or I didn't mean to). Just what would be done on the tiles. I always road flat land first so I can move in additional workers at lower movement cost if I need to. If the tile is forested I usually chop first (but not always) and then road as it takes less turns to road a grass/plains tile than a forested one.

	20-07-2003 23:52									#10
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Sounds good. That's the way I'd do it.

	28-07-2003 19:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill BTW, when Beta is back I hope we can still continue having the saves sent to us as well...it would make it easier to verify this if I had the current save

For sure. Perhaps it should be Harry, Rhoth and myself - just to keep it to three. Is that OK with you Witt. I think you are the fourth now.

And perhaps one of us should undertake to send the save to the rest of the team as soon as we receive it. In retrospect, I should have been doing that as well.

	28-07-2003 21:00									#12
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Something that I was able to push through in Tabemono is that they upload the save for any team member who wants to download it. That way ZargonX and Kloreep don't have to email it around to the whole team.

Either way is fine with me though. I just like looking at the save so I can make "better-informed" decisions.

	29-07-2003 04:37									#13
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roading is always very important to me

I also like to have some forest squares if there are no hills or mountains nearby to provide production

Jon Miller

	01-08-2003 03:04									#14
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It’s getting time to talk a few specifics about building our society.

First is what to build in The New Voice. Currently it is building a library. It has a few shields it produced before we started our prolonged anarchy plus the 10 from the forest that was chopped down and twenty more coming from chopping forest in two more tiles, for a total of 30+ shields. With a working population of 2 (assuming we use another city to provide a scientist for our research) it will get 3 shields/turn. A library could be done fairly quickly but it will be of no use (except for generating culture) and cost us 1 gpt. I propose we change to build a market first. A market can be done in less than 20 turns. It will generate an extra 3 gpt (or more with growth) which will more than make up for the maintenance cost. After the market we will have approximately 15 turns before we finish Printing Press and need a library to speed research. With some growth in the city we will be able to complete a library by then. So, I propose we change The New Voice from library to market.

The other thing we need to talk about is what to do with the three cities that will be founded next turn. They will need to start on harbors as their first project. We will have one more turn of anarchy so they will not be able to produce any shields or commerce. I would like one of them to talk over as our research center so The New Voice can have its laborer back to producing food. I suggest using the Poortown location for this. It will be limited to a max pop of 6 anyway and it will be a while yet before it has improved tiles to use so there is no hurry to build its pop. What should we do with the other two towns? They can either work a tile to get +1 food for each town (no shields or commerce) or be a tax collector to generate +1 gold for each town. Maybe I should work up a spreadsheet for the two towns, including projections on when worked tiles are ready, to see if 1 food will make a difference on when the city grows.

Once we get established and see how what our gpt situation is we should consider buying some harbors, if we have the extra gold, so a couple of the cities can start growing a little quicker.

	01-08-2003 03:23									#15
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I am reviewing your post Harry - but I did have one question I originally posted in the moves thread.

I am not criticizing, but trying to understand. Can you explain the benefits behind planting and cutting forests, relative to getting the road network in, or building mines on the plains tiles? I have obviously used forest clearing before - and even the occasional tree-planting when I did not have much else to do with the workers, but I have not used the tactic to the degree you are Harry.

	01-08-2003 03:36									#16
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For the New Voice, I am of two minds between a library and market. The library will double science output - whcih at 100% would give us two more beekers out of the Voice. But I can't see us going to 100% science anytime soon. We need the cash for building - as Harry has pointed out. We also have luxuries coming our way sometime courtesy of GoW, so a marketplace does seem to make more sense.

And culture is a moot point for us now.

As to the coastal cities - yes - harbours. I do not like the tax collector idea too much. I would still like the cities to grow, and by the time they reach pop 2, we can afford some harbours to get food from the sea. It is going to be a struggle. And yes Harry - I think some modeling of the various alternatives is best. One high producing food city would have been nice to pop feed the other cities. Oh well - we work with what we have.

	01-08-2003 04:02									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Beta I am reviewing your post Harry - but I did have one question I originally posted in the moves thread. I am not criticizing, but trying to understand. Can you explain the benefits behind planting and cutting forests, relative to getting the road network in, or building mines on the plains tiles? I have obviously used forest clearing before - and even the occasional tree-planting when I did not have much else to do with the workers, but I have not used the tactic to the degree you are Harry.

The benefit of planting and clearing forest before mining a tile is the 10 shield gain. The two northern cities will be our worker pumps for later use in building the population of the other towns. So we want to get those two cities their harbors fairly quickly so they can start growing for future use. Unless we rush-build the harbors with hard-earned cash it will take a while to build those harbors straight out. But with the ten shield boosts it will be a lot easier. We have plenty of workers right now and the industrious trait so I think it's an excellent use of the talents to get our future pop centers growing now. I don't often use the tactic as a shield boost except in the early game, but we are essentially back to the early game in terms of tile and city improvements.

As to The New Voice, I would prefer switching to a marketplace and switching the scientist to Poortown.

	01-08-2003 04:54									#18
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quote: One high producing food city would have been nice to pop feed the other cities. Oh well - we work with what we have.

That high producing food city will be the one N of The New Voice next to the fish. It will produce +4 food/turn. With a granary it will grow every 3 turns (while the pop is kept at 6 or less). If you read my description for Anchorage at the top of this thread, my plan is to use it to pop feed the others.

	01-08-2003 06:06									#19
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Re: Lumberjacking

There is no value until electricity in doing anything with the plains. Each city will at most only be able to use two plain or hill tiles, and that will stagnate its growth. Mined hills will provide more shields than mined plains. There is a group of 3 workers on the mountain E of The New Voice. They should complete the road in one or two turns. Then they will move down into the hill and proceed to do roads and mines for the cities in that corner.

There is also a worker on the mountain S of The New Voice building a road. After he completes that road he can either join the others or continue to road paths to the other towns.

For the other workers, we have a lot of workers and currently only one city. They could spend a lot of worker turns moving to some distant tiles to start on roads, or chop forests while a couple of workers work on a road path so they can move quickly when they finish the area around The New Voice. While in anarchy roads and mines provide no benefit to the cities and, for now, there are no other cities. Within a couple of turns after we come out of anarchy the work around The New Voice will be done. Although I keep mentioning that we have only one city now, I am not forgetting about the others. Those three tiles near The New Voice will be used by two cities, The New Voice and Irony. All three tiles will be put to use as soon as we come out of anarchy. I like to maximize worker turns and minimize time they spend just moving around. Doing work around The New Voice while a road is built to the northern grasslands will do that.

As long as I am going to planet and chop a forest in a tile I usually like to do that first since any mine you put down first will need to get done again after the forest is chopped. Why mine twice? There are times when when I will do mine (or irrigation first) and then come back later to planet a chop a forest if I want the shields, but my general rule is to do the forest first so I only have to mine/irrigate once.

As for my overall philosophy, I like a lot of workers. I usually have a stack of them right behind my lines when invading an enemy. They complete a road or railroad so I can quickly get fresh reinforcements to the lines. When a city is captured, they quickly ensure there is adequate food for the city and then do lumberjacking to speed the build of temples and cathedrals. It helps to get the city under control quickly as well as further push my borders into enemy territory. I always have plenty for them to do, including helping newly founded or conquered cities get built up quick. Sort of what we are trying to do here.

	01-08-2003 06:10									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill The benefit of planting and clearing forest before mining a tile is the 10 shield gain. The two northern cities will be our worker pumps for later use in building the population of the other towns. So we want to get those two cities their harbors fairly quickly so they can start growing for future use. Unless we rush-build the harbors with hard-earned cash it will take a while to build those harbors straight out. But with the ten shield boosts it will be a lot easier. We have plenty of workers right now and the industrious trait so I think it's an excellent use of the talents to get our future pop centers growing now. I don't often use the tactic as a shield boost except in the early game, but we are essentially back to the early game in terms of tile and city improvements.

Agreed for the two northern towns to produce harbours and/or granaries. But why around the New Voice where we can build mines and roads and move onto the other cities? I guess that is my questions. Once out of anarchy - a mine will produce 10 extra shields in 10 turns. Which is about the length of time it takes an industrious worker to plant (3) and cut (5) a forest. And that does not consider that the worker could be off building a mine or road somewhere else.

Not trying to be a pain here. This is new ground for me as well, and I am keen to figure out the best options.

	02-08-2003 01:02									#21
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Understood (no pain). Discussion is how we learn from each other and making one (me) try to explain reasoning also makes them (me) take another look, which is the reason I am slow to respond. I want to run an analysis tonight to see if I am right, you are right, or maybe there is a better middle ground. Basically, what I have been doing so far is my instinct from the way I play. This situation is a little different because we are founding a number of cities at once and we have no pre-worked tiles ready for the city. The question is, is my usual strategy the right way for this situation. I want to do some analysis to know for sure. Thanks for asking the question.

My gut told me that the area around The New Voice will support three citizens (two in The New Voice and one in Irony) while Anchorage and Halifax will each support only one and the workers will spend turns just getting there and back so working around The New Voice would provide the most benefit.

Half an analysis: If three workers head off to work the hills to the E/SE that leaves 9 other workers. Two groups of three workers each could sent the settlers towards the Anchorage and Halifax sites while one group of three works the area around The New Voice. The Anchorage/Halifax workers would arrive at the grassland one turn before the settlers arrived at the city site (because the grassland tile to work is one closer). Assuming we are out of anarchy (which it looks like we will be) it would take them one turn to road, which would happen on the same turn the city is founded, and two turns to mine the tile. During the same time three other workers could road and mine the single grassland tile near The New Voice and chop down one forest to reveal the grassland underneath. Two turns after we come out of anarchy and those cities are founded we will have three roaded and mined grassland tiles and one unimproved grassland tile for four cities (Anchorage, Halifax, The New Voice, and Irony) with a total 5 citizens to use. Anchorage will be better off using the fish tile until the grassland is mined so it will grow in 9 turns after being founded while Halifax will take 10 turns. Neither of these cities will need any more tiles until then. The workers near those cities can either work in preparation for what will be needed in 8 turns or spend time moving back to The New Voice area. Either way, they will not contribute anything for a few turns. One turn to road and two more to mine the unimproved grassland tile near The New Voice, then a turn to move the workers, two more to chop the other forest, one to road, and two to mine.

0 Come out of anarchy, cities founded. 2 R and 1 R&M (*)
1 Same (*)
2 3 R&M, 1 none
3 3 R&M, 1R
4 same
5 4 R&M
6 same
7 same
8 same (forest chopped)
9 Anchorage grows. 4 R&M, 1 unimproved + ?
10 Halifax grows. 4 R&M, 1 R + ?
11 4 R&M, 1 R + ?
12 5 R&M + ?

+ ? = what other work, if any, is done by the workers in the Anchorage and Halifax area.
(*) = Anchorage on fish so one roaded grassland is not being used.

This shows that it takes 12 turns after anarchy and the cities are founded to handle the initial 5 citizens. About this same time the cities of The New Voice and Irony will also grow but there will be no improved hill tiles for them to use.

So, will my plan be better or does my plan need to be adjusted? I know that in my plan Halifax suffers a bit but I think Irony and The New Voice benefit. Do they gain more than Halifax loses and just how much does Halifax lose? I need to do an analysis tonight to find out.

Edit: I just realized I used the wrong work rate. Industrious workers not in anarchy can road a grassland in two turns and mine in three. I need to update my half analysis above. I will do that as part of a more thorough analysis tonight.

Last edited by HarryH on 02-08-2003 at 03:19

	02-08-2003 03:43									#22
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Hmm - my suggestion Harry is to proceed as you are planning - and lets see how it works out. I see the logic behind your plan. It will be somewhat of a complex analysis to figure out the exact optimum strategy, so I say go for it.

And it is really kind of interesting to be building essentially a new civilization at this point of the game.

	03-08-2003 00:53									#23
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I think we should forget about culture and science and go military

provide military muscle to Lego, in exchange for them proping us up tach wise

this of course will hopefully change at some point, but is good for now

Jon Miller

	08-08-2003 22:36									#24
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Report for 70 AD turn has been posted.

We are currently running +1 gpt so our gold situation looks good. In four more turns the city of Panama Vox will be settled. My plan is to move the scientist to Panama Vox, put the laborer in Resurrection on the gold hill, move the laborer at Memory to the horse hill. By then a mine will be completed and the laborer in Sea Biscuit will have been moved to the mined hill. This should add two commerce to the cities in the east but I expect one may be lost to corruption. We will also get at least one commerce from Panama Vox plus a reduction of 1 unit cost. This should net us at least 3 more gpt.

In ten turns the cities of The New Voice, Hope, and Renewal will have (or will be close to) growing. The workers will have completed all they can do for The New Voice and Irony and be working up north in the Hope and Renewal areas. This will also increase our commerce by 8 which should generate at least 6 gpt.

Looking 15-20 turns ahead Hope will complete its granary, be size 3 on the way to size 4, The New Voice will have its market, and Irony will have grown to size 2. The cities of Sea Biscuit and Phoenix will be ready to grow to size 2 with Sea Biscuit completing its harbor and Phoenix completing its library. After the granary I would like Hope to build a settler for the final city site, the northern desert city.

There are three locations that will benefit or need border expansion before too long. They are Renewal, to get the shielded grassland, Memory, to get to the whale, and Phoenix, which has only one coast tile. We have 258 gold now with +1 gpt and should be up to +10 gpt in ten turns. Subtracting out the 70 gold we owe Lego we still have nearly 190 gold which is more than enough to rush an improvement. Our gpt will handle the maintenance but we will not have much gold left unless we get the gold GoW owes us. If we wait a few turns the rush cost will go down. Waiting plus the gold from GoW may allow us to do two rushes. On the other hand, I would like to rush a library in Memory as soon as possible so it can get to the whale and increase its growth rate.

If you noticed in the turn report I already set Phoenix to build a library. With only one coast tile it seems border expansion will be more important than a harbor. The harbor can be built second.

Since our gold situation looks OK, on the next turn I would like to send Lego the 70 gold we owe them.

	09-08-2003 03:36									#25
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH Since our gold situation looks OK, on the next turn I would like to send Lego the 70 gold we owe them.

I agree whole-heartedly!

	09-08-2003 03:44									#26
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We should make sure GoW knows not to send the gold they owe us straight to Lego then....assuming they do actually pay us sometime in the near future.

	09-08-2003 04:56									#27
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Beauty! I agree Harry. Let's repay Lego. I will tell them it is coming next turn. OK?

	09-08-2003 06:44									#28
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Sounds good to me. They've been more than patient waiting for it. Now that they need it, we have it to give back.

	09-08-2003 07:32									#29
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Harry - I presume GoW owes us 115 gold? If so, please confirm and I will pass on the request to GoW, I do believe it is an oversight on their part. Thanks.

	09-08-2003 18:53									#30
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Yes, GoW owes us 115 gold. If you want to tell Lego we will send the gold next turn, OK. I will include a note when I send them the next turn either way.