19-07-2003 05:27									#31
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Here's a for the for their efforts to maintain their mellifluous language and delicious cuisine over the years in the face of the substantially lesser alternatives offered by their neighbors. If it comes across a little silly sometimes, we should be all the more grateful that they are willing to pay that price of ridicule too.

	19-07-2003 05:31									#32
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Ridiculous I must agree, however some ppl here have short memory since some of their statemen did such silly actions by renaming French fries to Freedom fries.

and to u have to bash AN ENTIRE NATION JUST because a freak decided to do this ???

BTW, the term is banned on governmental official documents only.
99.99 % of the population probably won't never hear of it.
Anyway, everyone uses e-mail so stop making ado about nothing FFS

	19-07-2003 05:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by D' Artagnan Ridiculous I must agree, however some ppl here have short memory since some of their statemen did such silly actions by renaming French fries to Freedom fries. and to u have to bash AN ENTIRE NATION JUST because a freak decided to do this ??? BTW, the term is banned on governmental official documents only. 99.99 % of the population probably won't never hear of it. Anyway, everyone uses e-mail so stop making ado about nothing FFS

DL! DL! DL!

	19-07-2003 05:33									#34
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Telephone and Television are barely english words, anymore than Telegraph and Automobile are. The basis for such words are Latin and Greek, and thus are about as French as they are English.
It is different for the innovations of the computer age, since they are much less likely to be named using Geek and Latin roots, and more likely to get idosyncratic English names, like Spam.

But e-mail is not that hard to understand without English. Most people who speak Spanish probalby use e-mail, but if you said correo electronico, they would know what you were talking about. I don't know that if you went to the basic Frenchman they would know what courriel was meant to mean.

Plus, what is the problem with the French using more English words? All thast means is that they end up bilingual, as opposed to Anglo-Saxon monolingualism (if they know even that many..)

	19-07-2003 05:33									#35
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Good point....however renaming French Fries to Freedom Fries didn't come from a government mandate....

-=Vel=-

	19-07-2003 05:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Good point....however renaming French Fries to Freedom Fries didn't come from a government mandate.... -=Vel=-

Your right. Only in congress cafeterias do "Freedom Fries" live

	19-07-2003 05:37									#37
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Too right, Tass....which is stupid enough on its own....as if the Congress didn't have better and more important stuff to do.

-=Vel=-

	19-07-2003 05:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Too right, Tass....which is stupid enough on its own....as if the Congress didn't have better and more important stuff to do. -=Vel=-

Well as they say: If con is the opposite of pro, then the opposite of progress is......

	19-07-2003 05:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ummm....I'm not angry about it....I just think it's absurd that the French (or anyone else) feels the need to legislate what the "proper" word should be.

With emotive declarations on this thread that the plan is "a stupid move anyway" and "distinctly anti-american" and that " France will never be anything but a nation of xenophobes" the topic had obviously made some people deeply pissed off for some reason.

quote: Telephone and Television are barely english words, anymore than Telegraph and Automobile are. The basis for such words are Latin and Greek, and thus are about as French as they are English.

I dont understand the point you're trying to make. There are differences in words for (relatively) new technology and so surely that proves my point that we dont have to all have the same words for them.
And I dont see how words having the same root in Latin or Greek has anything to do with this debate.

quote: It is different for the innovations of the computer age, since they are much less likely to be named using Geek and Latin roots, and more likely to get idosyncratic English names, like Spam.

How can idiosyncracy be used as a defence when you just used similarity/a common root as a defence?

	19-07-2003 05:54									#40
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Heaven forbid that a government uses it's own language.

	19-07-2003 05:57									#41
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This isn't a government using its own language. This is a government artificially altering the development of said language, in the interests of cultural chauvinism.

	19-07-2003 05:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten This isn't a government using its own language. This is a government artificially altering the development of said language, in the interests of cultural chauvinism.

How so? All they are doing is telling Goverment workers to use the state language.

	19-07-2003 06:03									#43
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quote: How so? All they are doing is telling Goverment workers to use the state language.

Did you even read the article? "E-mail" is the most common term in France, but the government decided that it was diluting the language and ordered the new term "courriel" (taken from Quebec, it seems) to be used instead. The government is obviously attempting to stop the incorporation of English terms into the French language, to preserve the "purity" of the French language. Not unexpected behavior from the French, but stupid nonetheless.

	19-07-2003 06:05									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Heaven forbid that a government uses it's own language.

This is the whole argument summed up in one sentence.

The French government isn't forcing it's citizens to change the way they speak

The French government isn't forcing it's citizens to change the way they write

The French government isn't telling the world that the French language is the 'correct' one

The French government isn't trying to force other nations to follow it's lead

THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT HAD DECIDED TO SPEAK FRENCH!

and all anyone can do tell them how arrogant they are.

	19-07-2003 06:09									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How so? All they are doing is telling Goverment workers to use the state language. Did you even read the article?

I didn't bother reading all of it, since it's more bias then news.

quote: "E-mail" is the most common term in France, but the government decided that it was diluting the language and ordered the new term "courriel" (taken from Quebec, it seems) to be used instead. The government is obviously attempting to stop the incorporation of English terms into the French language, to preserve the "purity" of the French language. Not unexpected behavior from the French, but stupid nonetheless.

They haven't banned the general use of the word email, all they have done is begun using a litteral french translation of the word in all government documents and publications.

	19-07-2003 06:09									#46
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Drake Tungsten, you DO like generalizations don't you ?


The ban concerns only written governmental official documents not the whole population.

Actually, it wasn't even in the news and no one seems to care about it.
Everyone still uses email so what will it change ? Nothing.

Do I have to say : "America is stupid" every time your government makes a stupid move ??

	19-07-2003 06:13									#47
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quote: I didn't bother reading all of it, since it's more bias then news.

I figured as much. Guess we don't have anything else to talk about.

quote: Do I have to say : "America is stupid" every time your government makes a stupid move ??

This isn't the first time the French government has done this; they have a whole commision set up to protect the French language from outside influence, for god's sake.

And let's not even get started on France's horrible linguistic arrogance when it comes time to choosing the leaders of international bodies.

	19-07-2003 06:18									#48
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I like ti when we pikc up new words. the French are just ewaseily about stuff like that. I know. There was this ski instructor at Mont Trempblant who wouldn't date me becasue I was English.

	19-07-2003 06:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I didn't bother reading all of it, since it's more bias then news. I figured as much. Guess we don't have anything else to talk about.

The actual news stops at "The Culture Ministry has announced a ban on the use of "e-mail" in all government ministries, documents, publications or Web sites, the latest step to stem an incursion of English words into the French lexicon." from there on it's just bull **** and bias.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how having the government use the state language is some sort of linguistic imperialism. Or are you just going to look for another dodge?

	19-07-2003 06:27									#50
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Give me a frigging break. It's hillarious. WE have all kinds of words ocoming into our language from other plac3es and don't get excited about it.

	19-07-2003 06:29									#51
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Give me a frigging break. It's hillarious. WE have all kinds of words ocoming into our language from other plac3es and don't get excited about it.

But all government documents are required to be in English, no? (which is kind of odd, since I thought spanish is supposed to be a state language aswell - or do they write things in both spanish and english?)


EDIT: Actually, I misunderstood the post at first. English does have alot of words from other languages. So does French. All languages do. But courriel is, I am told, a litteral translation of e-mail in french. It is how you would abbreviate the french equivelant of "electronic mail".

	19-07-2003 06:30									#52
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quote: I'm still waiting for an explanation of how having the government use the state language is some sort of linguistic imperialism. Or are you just going to look for another dodge?

If you'd read the article you would see that "courriel" is in no way a part of the "state language." It's a word taken from Quebec and adopted by the government to replace the widely used, but offensive, "e-mail."

Now, would you please stop wasting my time with your moronic questions?

	19-07-2003 06:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'm still waiting for an explanation of how having the government use the state language is some sort of linguistic imperialism. Or are you just going to look for another dodge? If you'd read the article you would see that "courriel" is in no way a part of the "state language." It's a word taken from Quebec and adopted by the government to replace the widely used, but offensive, "e-mail." Now, would you please stop wasting my time with your moronic questions?

Like I said, it's all bullshit and bias. They didn't create a new word, niether did Quebec. It is a litteral translation, the french abbreviation of "courrier electronique".

	19-07-2003 06:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's not as if they are invading other countries trying to spread their VALUES! You don't see French missionaries trying to convert "heathens" to become French.

It's not because they don't want to Sava, it's because they can't do it anymore. Don't apply some virtue to a country just because it can't do the things it did so many times in the past.

	19-07-2003 06:48									#55
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BTW. If the French don't want to mingle with other languages then let them stand in their corner while English forincates with every known language to man.

	19-07-2003 07:20									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld But all government documents are required to be in English, no? (which is kind of odd, since I thought spanish is supposed to be a state language aswell - or do they write things in both spanish and english?) EDIT: Actually, I misunderstood the post at first. English does have alot of words from other languages. So does French. All languages do. But courriel is, I am told, a litteral translation of e-mail in french. It is how you would abbreviate the french equivelant of "electronic mail".

!. Spanish is not a state language.

2. We still put a lot of documents in Spanish anyway, cause what the ****. We've got a lot of Mexicans over here. An analog would be the French putting stuff in ARabic.

3. We don't get excited if some foreign word comes into our language and gets into government documents.

4. We don't have baords, beuareus, acadmeis and such worrying about the purity of our language.

	19-07-2003 07:29									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 DarthVeda (2) Vesayen Vel (2) Sava Oerdin Japher Plato

I love it when I am in good company.


In any event and however you look at it, when government starts "banning" words so that the people will maintain the proper "culture", then you have a problem. Is the degree of this transgression great? No, of course not. It is only being reported because of the recent rift in relations. Nonetheless, government should not mandate politically or culturally correct speech to its people (its the government only you say? Well are they not a government of the people?). To do so is an afront to the principle of free speech.

	19-07-2003 07:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I love it when I am in good company. In any event and however you look at it, when government starts "banning" words so that the people will maintain the proper "culture", then you have a problem. Is the degree of this transgression great? No, of course not. It is only being reported because of the recent rift in relations. Nonetheless, government should not mandate politically or culturally correct speech to its people (its the government only you say? Well are they not a government of the people?). To do so is an afront to the principle of free speech.

Yes, they are a government of the people, and if the people wish to reverse this decision then so be it. However, if they do not then let it be. The people are not being FORCED to accept the change.

Why is everyone making such a big deal about this?

	19-07-2003 07:37									#59
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IMO Tass, it is a matter of principle. This particular issue is no big deal. It is the larger principle involved.

	19-07-2003 07:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant As Brits, Americans, Canadians, Australians and the like, it is easy for us to act as if we are morally superior for excepting a VERY FEW foreign terms into our language (can anyone think of more than a handfull over the last decade).

What the hell are you talking about? English is the language equivilant of the Borg when it comes to assimilating new words.