19-07-2003 20:39									#91
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quote: I accept paypal!

Let me shop around first. I'll get back to you.

	19-07-2003 20:41									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: the government making a decision of official language use for practical reasons If you really believe this, then you're dumber than I thought you were.

Considering you don't have any evidence to the contrary other than your typical French-bashing, this is rich. If you want cultural chauvinism, I suggest you look in the mirror.

Tell me, do you speak French? Know anything about the technicalities of the language? No?

Didn't think so. Yet I'm the dumb one because I'm not making a knee-jerk assumption based on my own cultural prejudices.

	19-07-2003 20:41									#93
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quote: Yet I'm the dumb one because I'm not making a knee-jerk assumption based on my own cultural prejudices.

DUH!

	19-07-2003 20:49									#94
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quote: Yet I'm the dumb one because I'm not making a knee-jerk assumption based on my own cultural prejudices.

You're dumb because it is obvious to all non-retards that this change was made for cultural reasons, not practical ones. The article says the change was made to help stem an influx of English words. The French commision on language would proudly admit to it. Yet, you latch onto some weak comment by Davout in an attempt to make all of us who actually see what the French are doing look like irrational anti-French zealots.

Nice try, but some of us can see right through you.

quote: If you want cultural chauvinism, I suggest you look in the mirror.

I'm from Nebraska. We don't have any culture to be chauvinistic about, as you've told me on several occasions.

	19-07-2003 20:56									#95
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I have a few points:

a) the Freedom Fries thing is considered ridiculous in America as well. It's a few freaks. 99.9% of the time it's used, it's a joke (ie, ****, I have a freedom test today )

b) there is no problem with what they're doing, it's just intensely inane. They aren't saying "you must use french in government documents", they're REDEFINING the language. This is stupid because a language is defined by what people say, not the other way around.

	19-07-2003 20:58									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're dumb because it is obvious to all non-retards that this change was made for cultural reasons, not practical ones. The article says the change was made to help stem an influx of English words. The French commision on language would proudly admit to it. Yet, you latch onto some weak comment by Davout in an attempt to make all of us who actually see what the French are doing look like irrational anti-French zealots. Nice try, but some of us can see right through you.

Oh yeah, the article--from an American newspaper. I must point out how the Culture Ministry did not ban the use of "Spam" or "Chat," which were also given the alternative Frenchisms of "pourriel" and "clavardage." They didn't adopt them because they didn't think doing so was practical, as the English terms work fine. "E-mail" is not easy to say in French, that's just the way it is.

quote: I'm from Nebraska. We don't have any culture to be chauvinistic about, as you've told me on several occasions.

I said there was no culture there? News to me!

	19-07-2003 21:02									#97
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And TCO, how does this differ from US decisions to use terms they like more in official documents? It may be silly, but it's no sillier than any of the euphemisms you hear from the military...

To be comparably silly, you would have to have a Government document mandating Freedom Fries in all government documents.

Euphemisms are a lesser sin, than proclamations to change a word that is commonly word but comes from another language.

	19-07-2003 21:02									#98
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quote: They didn't adopt them because they didn't think doing so was practical, as the English terms work fine. "E-mail" is not easy to say in French, that's just the way it is.

If "e-mail" is so impractical, why did the lady in the article say she thought everyone would continue using it? Why have the French posters in this thread assured us that the vast majority of the French population will continue to use "e-mail", that this will only change the word in government documents? Sounds to me that the term "e-mail" is a perfectly practical addition to the French language.

This change was made for cultural reasons, plain and simple.

	19-07-2003 21:03									#99
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Similar language-preserving activities are going on in Sweden too and presumably in many other countries as well. Yet it's apparently only the French that are the chauvinistic morons.

Being rather ignorant on this issue, I ask you to please explain to me why it's so bad only in the case of France and not other countries? I never heard anyone talking about "Sweden commits idiotic act to show it is superior to America blah blah blah"

	19-07-2003 21:05									#100
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Combat Ingrid: Because it's cool for the jingos if they bash France.

	19-07-2003 21:05									#101
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Having seen te entemology of the word, it is not in any way redefining the language. In French, as in Spanish, the adjective follows the noun instead of preceding it_ E stands for the adjective to mail in this case. Well, in French the word translates directly is courrier electronique, or courri er electronique, or courriel.

And on the notion that usgae should dictate what is used: goernments can seelct to use anyting they crae to: they ae not attempting to force the population to change usage, so there is nothing wrong with this, excep that it riles the French haters here.

	19-07-2003 21:05									#102
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quote: Being rather ignorant on this issue, I ask you to please explain to me why it's so bad only in the case of France and not other countries?

It's stupid when any country does it. Japan does the same thing (to a much lesser extent than France) and I don't approve of that either. However, France is the one being discussed because this particular article was about them and they are one of the most flagrant offenders in this area.

	19-07-2003 21:07									#103
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By the way, saying they are silly isn't bashing them. If I wanted to bash, I would be hitting them like Britney Spears hitting a wildebeest.

	19-07-2003 21:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If "e-mail" is so impractical, why did the lady in the article say she thought everyone would continue using it? Why have the French posters in this thread assured us that the vast majority of the French population will continue to use "e-mail", that this will only change the word in government documents? Sounds to me that the term "e-mail" is a perfectly practical addition to the French language. This change was made for cultural reasons, plain and simple.

Gee, maybe she just has a different opinion on the matter than those who made the decision?

Just because "e-mail" is currently ubiquitous, due to its being around for so long, does not mean it is the most practical term they could use. From a purely linguistic perspecitve, "courriel" is much easier and natural-sounding in French than "e-mail."

Of course the change was made for cultural reasons--just not necessarily the one you're assuming out of your anti-gallic mindset. Anything decisions dealing with use of language are inheritly cultural in nature.

	19-07-2003 21:09									#105
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quote: Of course the change was made for cultural reasons

I rest my case.

	19-07-2003 21:11									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Of course the change was made for cultural reasons I rest my case.

Why? "Cultural reasons" include the word "courriel" being easier to pronounce and more practical than "e-mail."

	19-07-2003 21:11									#107
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quote: Originally posted by TCO To be comparably silly, you would have to have a Government document mandating Freedom Fries in all government documents. Euphemisms are a lesser sin, than proclamations to change a word that is commonly word but comes from another language.

I don't think so. Freedom Fries is just patently more ridiculous. Nobody has ever used that term before, and it was a means of getting back at one country. Courriel is stupid (they should just let the language evolve) but is indicative of their desire to "maintain" French language (something that started in 18th century with Acad. de la LF). And euphemisms are actually worse, IMO. I'm a lot more upset when a government official tries to trivialise human suffering by couching it in more comfortable terms than I am when somebody changes the name of email because it's an anglicisme...

	19-07-2003 21:11									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Gee, maybe she just has a different opinion on the matter than those who made the decision? Just because "e-mail" is currently ubiquitous, due to its being around for so long, does not mean it is the most practical term they could use. From a purely linguistic perspecitve, "courriel" is much easier and natural-sounding in French than "e-mail." Of course the change was made for cultural reasons--just not necessarily the one you're assuming out of your anti-gallic mindset. Anything decisions dealing with use of language are inheritly cultural in nature.

You haven't squared her different opinion from YOUR statement on practicality. Nor have you squared your statement of practicality with current usage! If people use it, than how is it impractical? Huh???

Stop twisting like Fez in a sheet.

	19-07-2003 21:12									#109
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't think so. Freedom Fries is just patently more ridiculous. Nobody has ever used that term before, and it was a means of getting back at one country. Courriel is stupid (they should just let the language evolve) but is indicative of their desire to "maintain" French language (something that started in 18th century with Acad. de la LF). And euphemisms are actually worse, IMO. I'm a lot more upset when a government official tries to trivialise human suffering by couching it in more comfortable terms than I am when somebody changes the name of email because it's an anglicisme...

Well, I guess we agree that they are not good analogues. I also think stealing money is worse. As is beating your wife.

	19-07-2003 21:13									#110
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quote: Originally posted by TCO By the way, saying they are silly isn't bashing them. If I wanted to bash, I would be hitting them like Britney Spears hitting a wildebeest.

I'm not saying you're bashing them. But I do think there is opportunism present in this thread. Especially in overreaction and calling it a death of free speech in France...

If they want a violation of free speech used to maintain French they should look to the North, not across the Atlantic...

	19-07-2003 21:13									#111
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And it looks like we agree, the language should just evolve.

	19-07-2003 21:14									#112
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not saying you're bashing them. But I do think there is opportunism present in this thread. Especially in overreaction and calling it a death of free speech in France... If they want a violation of free speech used to maintain French they should look to the North, not across the Atlantic...

What there are French people in America, I mean Canada, I mean North America? Next you'll tell me that Brazillians have black people too!

	19-07-2003 21:15									#113
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I want some Coffee!

	19-07-2003 21:15									#114
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quote: I'm not saying you're bashing them. But I do think there is opportunism present in this thread. Especially in overreaction and calling it a death of free speech in France...

I'd have to agree with this. For the record, I don't think this is the death of free speech in France or anything else as equally absurd. It's just a silly decision made because of France's overwhelming belief in the superiority and purity of their own language (a pet peeve of mine).

	19-07-2003 21:16									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I want some Coffee!

Yasser, coming right up!

	19-07-2003 21:17									#116
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quote: Originally posted by TCO You haven't squared her different opinion from YOUR statement on practicality. Nor have you squared your statement of practicality with current usage! If people use it, than how is it impractical? Huh??? Stop twisting like Fez in a sheet.

Why do I have to square her opinion? She's just saying that, in her opinion, e-mail is fine. Others disagree.

And you're saying everything in current usage must be the most practical? Malarky.

People often stick with less-practical means of saying or doing things out of habit and tradition. As I said, ubiquitous use does not necessarily denote it is the most practical. Our computer keyboards are a perfect example. They are ubiquitous, but the key layout is not the most practical possible for speed and accuracy. Attempts to introduce new layouts have been failures because people are stubborn and don't like changing habits, even if changing them would make a better result.

Now, I'm not saying I think "courriel" will catch on and replace e-mail. It is likely that "e-mail" is there to stay, precisely because of habit. But I don't think the ministry's decision is the cultural sideswipe people are making it out to be.

	19-07-2003 21:17									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'm not saying you're bashing them. But I do think there is opportunism present in this thread. Especially in overreaction and calling it a death of free speech in France... I'd have to agree with this. For the record, I don't think this is the death of free speech in France or anything else as equally absurd. It's just a silly decision made because of France's overwhelming belief in the superiority and purity of their own language (a pet peeve of mine).

Stop it. We'll all be agreeing soon. Then we will have to gang bang Fez to get our rocks off and that makes me feel so cheap.

	19-07-2003 21:18									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Why do I have to square her opinion? She's just saying that, in her opinion, e-mail is fine. Others disagree. And you're saying everything in current usage must be the most practical? Malarky. People often stick with less-practical means of saying or doing things out of habit and tradition. As I said, ubiquitous use does not necessarily denote it is the most practical. Our computer keyboards are a perfect example. They are ubiquitous, but the key layout is not the most practical possible for speed and accuracy. Attempts to introduce new layouts have been failures because people are stubborn and don't like changing habits, even if changing them would make a better result. Now, I'm not saying I think "courriel" will catch on and replace e-mail. It is likely that "e-mail" is there to stay, precisely because of habit. But I don't think the ministry's decision is the cultural sideswipe people are making it out to be.

If people readily use something, how is it impractical. It might not be optimal, but it's certainly not impractical. And you twist just fine, honey.

	19-07-2003 21:19									#119
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quote: Stop it. We'll all be agreeing soon.

Nah. We'll still have Boris around to disagree with. He never admits defeat.

quote: Then we will have to gang bang Fez to get our rocks off and that makes me feel so cheap.

	19-07-2003 21:20									#120
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"less practical" not "impractical" Practicality is a spectrum, not either/or. Darlin'.