19-07-2003 06:07									#1
	You think Iraq is bad? Look at Chechnya... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have to admit that over the last month or so, I've dreaded listening to the news on the radio in the morning, because that's when they announce the deaths from Iraq. Sometimes it's no soldiers. Sometimes it's one soldier.

But it must really suck to live in Russia and hear about 8 troops getting killed on Thursday in Chechnya, a speck of a province...

http://www.iht.com/articles/103241.html

And then about several terrorist attacks outside of Chechnya every day...

http://www.canada.com/news/story.as...CA-2204CF161E2C

It's got to be demoralizing. Do the Russian defense forces not have as good of force protection methods as the American troops, or is it just that the Chechnyans are more skilled fighters than the current crop of dead enders in Iraq?

	19-07-2003 06:08									#2
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quote: Do the Russian defense forces not have as good of force protection methods as the American troops

Yes.

	19-07-2003 06:11									#3
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Well, you would think they could do something about it, like improving their force protection. How is it worse, and how could they make it better?

	19-07-2003 06:13									#4
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Also, does anybody have death totals since '94 and especially over the last year or two?

	19-07-2003 07:09									#5
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Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union (and before, of course) the Soviet/Russian military has gone down the tubes. As has the rest of the country in terms of economic stability or prosperity.

Russia is handling this situation very badly.

	19-07-2003 07:16									#6
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Actually tass I must dispute that. Putin has set aside more money for the military budget after the economy has steadily grown in the past couple of years.... still the situation is very bad. Chechnya is Russia´s forgotten war, that peaceniks tend to ignore because it doesn´t suit their agenda.

	19-07-2003 07:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Actually tass I must dispute that. Putin has set aside more money for the military budget after the economy has steadily grown in the past couple of years....

While that may be true, it's still not going to save the Russian military anytime soon

Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

	19-07-2003 08:00									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union (and before, of course) the Soviet/Russian military has gone down the tubes. As has the rest of the country in terms of economic stability or prosperity. Russia is handling this situation very badly.

Let's be honest, the High water mark for the Red Army was Berlin, '45.



They weren't doing to well in the late '70's and '80's in Afghanistan...while at the time the American Military was undergoing a paradigm shift. The American Military went away from "Numbers" and towards "technology and training, training, training, and did we mention training?"

Of course, the sudden increased in the training tempo scared the sh*t outta the Russians...which caused them to piss more money away...so on and so forth.

	19-07-2003 08:04									#9
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The Chechens are better organized and armed than the people we are currently fighting in Iraq to start with. And the Russians are using a mixe of troops, some profeesional, lots of them cosnrcipts and internal security forces as opposed to army forces.

	19-07-2003 08:06									#10
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Actually, almost all are conscripts from what I hear. Mostly drawn up from neighboring provinces next to Chechyna.

	19-07-2003 08:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 While that may be true, it's still not going to save the Russian military anytime soon Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

To the Russians, Chechnya is an internal matter.


Waits for Serb to remind us how well the war is going

	19-07-2003 08:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Waits for Serb to remind us how well the war is going

He'll probably show up with a pravda links.. stand clear...

	19-07-2003 08:40									#13
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Yeah, seriously. The thread title might as well said "Serb! Git yer arse over here!"

	19-07-2003 09:22									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber

Not to all Russians.

Also, one must remember the morale of the Russian troops is low not because of defeats in Chenchya (that contributes, but...) because of how conscripts, etc are treated by more vetran troops. A lot of recruits are killed simply because theyre new, so demoralization starts at the beginning.

	20-07-2003 11:46									#15
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Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

In the first war, I would have agreed with you. But giving up on the second war would send the wrong signal about the power of terrorist tactics.

	20-07-2003 11:52									#16
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Man, iot's all symptomatic of similar dynamic. Russia's got it worse because thaey use shitiiesr troopse and are engages in more blatantly imperialistic role, but it ends up the same for the US. Crappy war, crappy result.

	20-07-2003 11:59									#17
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The similarities are fewer than the differences.

	20-07-2003 12:02									#18
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I donty' think so. But it's possible that that's symptomatic of my curent "state of mind and not reality, so I wont argute with you.

	20-07-2003 12:10									#19
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"state of mind"?

	20-07-2003 12:12									#20
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18 and counting.

Wokring an rthe 19th, in other words. Don't want to alienate you. What arte you doing up at this time on a Staturday?

	20-07-2003 12:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests. In the first war, I would have agreed with you. But giving up on the second war would send the wrong signal about the power of terrorist tactics.

But if they don't give up, neither will Chechen rebels. And the violence will continue.

	20-07-2003 12:17									#22
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Actually, I was very surprised at the amount of casualties the americans are facing. it seems that they're getting you, al the time.

In chechniya, just like in afghanistan, the terrain is much harder than the one in Iraq. Iraq is much flatter, while chechniya is full of mountains and vallies, just like Afghanistan.

maybe you guys need to learn a lesson or two from the IDF.

	20-07-2003 12:20									#23
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iRAQQ IS ALL ABOUT URVBAN WARFARE. tHAT'S WHY it's crappy. Slower war, bu t can be maintaitned forever (countryside grueilla warfare is quicker, either way)...

	20-07-2003 12:22									#24
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I thought that most of the coloumns were engaged outside the cities, actually.

	20-07-2003 12:23									#25
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Maybe. But I get the feeling that they're hisding inside cities. Attaqckes seem to hapent in suburbs (wsepcially Falujah and Baghdad)

I tghinh I mispselled Falujah.

	20-07-2003 12:29									#26
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i think you mispelled "mispelled","think", "attacks", "especialially", "hiding", and a whole lot of other words, but I won't hold it against you.

They could be hiding inside cities, but there are opportunities to hide in the desert as well.

All in all, I was rather dissapointed with the US Army. They probably don't have enough troops to maintain order. How many troops remain there, could you remind me?

	20-07-2003 12:31									#27
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I thought they were at 1.5X10^5

Hlooe. Where thdid that come from? Two more Beecrs Iw il drink you now.

	20-07-2003 12:32									#28
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Azazel, he's drunk remember... He is actually quite coherent it is stunning...

Anyways, I am impressed by the US Army.. I think they have enough. And they are creating this Iraqi Militia force that will maintain order and remove pressure from the US military.

	20-07-2003 12:41									#29
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150K.. that's not too much.

Fez: US soldiers are getting killed there daily. They're there for how long, 3 months? and there is already talk of a moral drop? wow.

	20-07-2003 12:43									#30
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I5ts' easier to talk about morale drope when you;'re half a world a way.

Isarely put up with Lebanon for 15 years beacaues they wwere right next door. US wion;'t put up with Iraq for anywhere clsoe to as long.