19-07-2003 06:34									#1
	Investigation of Elucidium Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In the chat this afternoon, Lucky asked us how much gold we would want if we were to investigate Elucidium for them and send them the screenshot of it. We told him that we would have to discuss it first.

This is good, especially since investigating the CDG capital was one of the important parts of our own plan. However, Lucky said that they would need to know soon (before their next turn), so they're obviously planning on attacking sometime within the next couple turns.

So what say we? Do we accept their offer and provide the info?

This is an issue which we must decide quickly if we want to involve GCA. If they attack the turn after next they won't want wait for us to decide.

	19-07-2003 07:29									#2
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It would cost 38 gold on the last turn (775). Call it 40 gold to allow for fluctuations. I would not resist this if others think it is a good idea. It also might make them less adverse to our picking up some spoils.

Do not say yes prior to our turn. We want the gold from them up front. We do not want to have them ask us to do it prior to our next turn. It may hasten the assault on Elucidium and they may then be in a position to grab Alcohol before we are.

The turn after our next is one turn prior to when we would want to investigate that city, ideally.

Next turn, 3 swords move to Karina 8.

N +1, 3 swords into Karina 8. Receive cash from GCA. Take shot of Elucidium.

N +2, investigate Alcohol and move across the border if we like what we see.

	19-07-2003 07:32									#3
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GCA has also mentioned that it has no intent to capture any CDG lands beyond Elucidium.

I guess the widening gap between current info and public knowledge is widening as the server problems continue.

Btw, I support the idea. We gain info, they gain info, we lose no cash.

	19-07-2003 08:19									#4
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+1 to this deal. We gain something we want, it costs us nothing but sharing the info.

	19-07-2003 08:56									#5
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By God yes! Exactly as nye says.

	19-07-2003 10:31									#6
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Agreed, let's take it.

	19-07-2003 10:55									#7
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Uh. Why exactly do we want to help GCA finish off CDG? For once I'm completely against the majority- this is information GCA needs to kill off CDG- and thereby make our lives harder!

Egods, NO! Not only that, it's shady to say the least and if people found out later that we investigated the city as GCA's lackey, our reputation would be smeared. At the very least GCA would know we were capable of double-dealing.

Further, do the rules of the ISDG actually ALLOW that kind of thing? We could describe it for them, but it seems to me that sending them a screenshot (particularly when there's absolutely no way to do that in a standard MP game- besides describing it) would be illegal.

I'm sorry, I'm against this idea strategically, diplomatically, and ideologically- this is a really, really poor way to get involved. We don't WANT GCA to finish off CDG. Why don't we use this to our advantage instead of being the informant for the assassin? We should work to at least get a profit from this - GCA is basing the decision on how/when to strike *the killing blow* on CDG from this information. We might also simply offer to describe it out of concern for the rules - and then describe whatever we think might be best.

I"m really, really surprised that so many people think this is a GOOD idea. We want a weak, fragmented civ to attack and multiple fighting opponents- not the GCA army sitting right where we want to go and full of elites!

Last edited by Fried-Psitalon on 19-07-2003 at 11:01

	19-07-2003 11:06									#8
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F-P. Do you think that the making of GCA at ease with us is outweighed by Elucidium falling a turn or two sooner?

A dissenting voice should be carefully heard in the face of broad agreement, please go on.

	19-07-2003 13:18									#9
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I agree with F-P here.

We are not at war with CDG. We are not GCA's Allies. It is a 'dirty' manuever in my book.

Plus, do we really need to help GCA out? Gosh, they have moved non-stop from one city to the next with no turn inbetween! Let them attack CDG blindly. We want a stalemate now. If GCA learns that CDG has too many units, they will not attack and thus no stale,ate and no lost untis for either Civ. If GCA learns that CDG has too few units there, they attack and take a city we once wanted for ourselves.

I definately vote against.

nye: Do we really need to make GCA feel anymore at ease with us than they do now? Do you think they view us suspiciously? They might, but we ALL view each other Civ that way; it's the nature of the game to not put too much trust into any relationship that does not have an Alliance conected to it or unspeculated outcomes.

	19-07-2003 18:42									#10
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Bigfree says it well. Remember, what benefits Apolyton most is three warring nations; even if one of those nations is on the brink of collapse. GCA will understand if we "express concern for the rules of the game" or "are deeply concerned about how the global community might view these actions" or something similar. These really are GOOD, VALID excuses - I'm honestly unsure if I like this from a fairness perspective.

However, I do think that perhaps we could use this to our advantage. Let's be perfectly blunt: If CDG falls - and unless our investigation of Elucidium proves otherwise, that's a reasonable expectation - our next target for a major, massive offensive will be GCA . We do not under any circumstances need to be aiding these people! In 35 turns, we could be in a life or death war with them - in 35 turns, the ARMY of GCA led by a "real" army could be at the gates of Apolyton! We feel that we are ready to deal with such a threat - and I'm sure CDG thought they were ready when they invaded!

I think at best, being GCA's lackey - and be very clear, we are their toady if we accept this proposal as it stands - gives us a piece of useless intelligence (we won't beat them to Elucidium.) We also gain the good will of our probable next major target who might also just keep rolling north and come after us! GCA has smeared one civ and is doing fairly well against another - right or wrong, they may think they're the kings of the continent and try and prove it. That would result in them losing, probably, and us getting a Despotic GA.

THIS is what I propose we choose between in options - apologies to Master Zen for the title:

Friedrich's EEEEEEEvvvviiillll Plan

Option 1: Outright refusal. Reasons mentioned above. The 'honest' way out, but we're honest joes, right?

Option 2: Acceptance but only if we simply describe it "out of concern for rules." We see Elucidium, and if we think GCA can take it - we lie. We inflate numbers, invent catapults, whatever. GCA has noted CDG seems to be 'letting them in' right now - they'd believe a massive reserve for a smashing counterattack lies in Elucidium.

Option 3: We doctor a screenshot if GCA won't take anything else. We have the technical expertise. However, if we're going to go in this deep I propose we go the full road- we warn CDG (even though they probably already know) and we begin full coordinated diplomatic discussion with CFC. GCA has to have a moderate amount of weight coming north, so CFC can probably hammer east fairly well. When GCA sees a threat in their west, they may jerk units back south, believing us to be "helping" them.

That's when WE take Elucidium and drive south, hard. CDG keeps two jungle cities and potentially becomes "our *****es" for research or whatever until we feel like smearing them. CFC forges a good partnership with us, which we'll need because being alone here means we're so far back in research we'll never catch up. We can paint it very clearly for CFC - we want X, Y, Z, and we'll help you get rid of GCA, and we'll both ride together into the next era. GCA gets hammered out of existence. If we demand both chokepoint cities as part of our long-term plan/treaty with CFC, on the grounds that their riders are more of a threat and we wish to promote world peace, we stand to do quite well, I think.

Anyhow, there you have it. My specific reasons why we don't want to go as we seem to be leaning.

We want to subtly counterbalance any strong influences; we warn to reduce ALL parties to nearly zero - and right now, that means adding strength, however mildly, to CDG.

Last edited by Fried-Psitalon on 19-07-2003 at 18:54

	19-07-2003 19:06									#11
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If there's anyone we should be helping right now, it's CDG!

I also vote no to helping GCA. If the only reason to help them is to keep them on our good side, that's not good enough. We can just continue with our "not getting involved" stance, and GCA will not think any less of us.


Dominae

	19-07-2003 19:41									#12
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We will attack CDG someday- so why help them? This is the same as saying we won't help GCA because we'll be fighting them...

But, our reasoning has nothing to do with helping anyone right now but ourselves.

We will be literally crawling over CDG's border towns (if we feel like it won't be so easy- than stay out of this)- the obvious benefit here is a couple of buffer towns- perhaps the first line of defense against CGA, or a staging point- they're usefulness beyond that is questioned, but a buffer zone is a worthy cause to stage a limited war for, is it not?

I also think this has little to do with how anyone feels about us, especially CGA who seem to think of this whole affair with CDG as a nuisance that keeps them from taking down their sworn enemies, CFC, and have given us an "ok" as in- we don't really mind as long as you don't take the serious spoils.

Beyond that- I don't think we should aid CGA by investigating for them, regardless of fairness or not (it doesn't seem treaties are seriously considered here, let alone this kind of vague action in terms of fairness).

	19-07-2003 20:02									#13
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quote: Originally posted by zeit We will attack CDG someday- so why help them?

The longer CDG puts up a fight against GCA, the better it is for us. GCA is steamrolling CDG, so there's no real worry about beefing up a future opponent (CDG, that is).

I'm not exactly sure how we would go about helping CDG, but what we should definitely not be doing is helping GCA.


Dominae

	19-07-2003 20:29									#14
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After reading F-P's arguments, I admit he has a point. The idea of becoming a spy for hire no longer looks very viable to me... though - I'd still consider investigating the city (but reporting nothing to GCA). We'd be able to reasonably predict whether the fall of Elucidia really is imminent or not and we could adjust our own attack timing accordingly.

But it costs 40 gold... 1 sword upgrade... (OTOH, if we attack NOW, we can easily slow our research down to 10%, as getting to Republic fast will become of less importance).

Whatever we do, we risk something... so we need to choose which risk to take.

	19-07-2003 20:38									#15
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As far as I can tell, we cannot prevent the fall of Elucidium by GCA's hands by getting there ourselves first. Therefore paying precious Gold to investigate the city is pointless.

Just because we have this cool option of investigating cities does not mean we have to use it. Information is useful, true, but in this case Swordsmen are more useful than the info we can possibly get by investigating CDG.


Dominae

	19-07-2003 21:23									#16
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I don't think there's a huge 'morality' issue that is attached to this. I know it has been done and/or proposed in the PTWDG.

The key is, will this be good for our team? Well, I guess it depends mainly on the money GCA wants to spend on it. Don't investigate for only what it costs to investigate; make them spend a bit more; so at least we get ahead a bit financially.

But the main thing I'm saying is to not look at this as an 'honour' issue.

	19-07-2003 21:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 But the main thing I'm saying is to not look at this as an 'honour' issue.

Who said it is?

	19-07-2003 23:41									#18
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If we are really worried about the legality of it, we should clear it with the UN.

If its not considered cheating though, then Im still 100% for this idea.

And I agree with Dominae, we should charge a premium for our espionage services. Though we shouldn't necessarily tell them we are. We should just say we want 60 gold (or whatever we decide on) and let them make up their minds on if its worth it to them.

	20-07-2003 00:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Who said it is?

F-P mainly.

	20-07-2003 00:56									#20
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I did too.

	20-07-2003 07:24									#21
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We should definitely spend the gold on investigating Elucidium.

If there are 7 or 8 immortals in there, do we really want to cross the border? These guys could easily say 'screw this, Brutus (Poly) will die for their carrion actions!' and rush north.

Do we want that to be a possibility?

If there is a large force in Elucidium, do we need to cross the border? Alcohol could be close to adding another immortal to their army and would kill more GCA units. If we feel Elucidium looks well defended then we can wait in Karina until we see it go down, or until Republic if they hold out.

	20-07-2003 08:15									#22
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NYE is right. If CDG has any significant forces they will be in Elucidium, no where else. We have to investigate that city one way or another. IMO, it's best to get that info for free or even make a profit from it.

CDG's power has continued to drop even on turns it did not lose cities. That means they have lost more units (no doubt, more Immortals). They likely have very few units left since they do not have near ours or GCA's industry to help replace units If we lose our main stack attacking (6 Swords) then we would have difficulty replacing them in short order. CDG has half our industry and lost a force equivalent to our own. There's no way they can hold out of GCA has any significant number of units. GCA is determined to capture Elucidium, and even if we hinted that Elucidium was well-defended they would still attack it. Chances are that it isn't.

	20-07-2003 09:46									#23
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Will CDG's Immortals all be waiting in their capital? Would ours if we were in their situation?

Would CDG come North with their 8 Immortals when GCA is knocking at their door from the South?

We cannot have it both ways: either we're cautious and wait to attack, or we strike now. I seriously doubt we're going to learn anything from investigating Elucidium that will make one alternative the obvious favorite. It does not matter where their units are, but that they have them at all. Always assume your opponent is going to mount the best defense against you, and plan accordingly.

What are our estimates on the size/composition of the CDG forces? How many Mercs. is one Immortal worth?


Dominae

	20-07-2003 10:14									#24
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If GCA was a single turn away from our capital then I would probably suggest we move some units there.

If CDG does have some 8-odd Immortals, then chances are we wouldn't be able to take them down without GCA softening them up first. On the other hand, even if they don't have a ton of units there it would be nice to know what we might see coming our way if we do invade.

Knowing CDG has 3 Immortals and 3 Spearmen in Elucidium is valuable knowledge. Considering we could make a profit off of that knowledge is all the better.

	20-07-2003 10:19									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip If GCA was a single turn away from our capital then I would probably suggest we move some units there.

If this is the case, why help GCA even further? Sure, we can make 20 Gold off of our little transaction, but is that really worth having a stronger GCA?

And why is there the assumption that everything will be in Elucidia? What we should really do is investigate the city after GCA strikes (assuming you're correct in saying that GCA will strike next turn).


Dominae

	20-07-2003 14:17									#26
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Lets do our own investigation. We do not need GCA's money enough to actually warrant helping them out, unless they are willing to pay 100 gold for it.

Until then, we investigate, and keep the info to ourselves.

	20-07-2003 15:01									#27
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Agreed with Bigfree. I'm sorry, but I do not want to help GCA; we are not their lackies or spies. At the very least, we could simply take their money and lie. :P

It comes down to this: to establish a proper balance, you help the weakest party, not the strongest one.

	20-07-2003 15:21									#28
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I can accept that. That is why I would be willing to pay for the investigation of Elucidium ourselves, and damn GCA.

	20-07-2003 20:57									#29
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How much is investigating and showing GCA really going to help them?

case 1: The city is lightly defended.
1a) We investigate and tell them. They attack and take it.
1b) We don't tell them. They attack and take it.
case 2: The city is heavily defended.
2a) We tell them. They might not attack, this doesn't help them alot, it slows them down. On the other hand we don't know the size of their forces, so it might not make a difference.
2b) We don't tell them. They probally attack and theres a chance they lose their force and soften CDG for us, this would be good.

We should probally investigate prior to making a deal, and see which case we are dealing with. If CDG is on its last leg, then we have very little to lose by making a profit on selling that knowledge. If on the other hand they have several immortals (4 or 5) we might want to keep that to ourselves just so GCA still weakens them and loses some of their forces too.....