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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cloud9
Try giving in a little and you'll be a better debater.
For example, I don't really thwart Windows as being utterly destroyed some day; I'm not all negative when it comes to Windows. After all, in the poll I chose the option "Unix will rule half the market; Windows will rule the other half." In other words, I'm very neutral on the issue.
But some people here would just love to see Unix utterly destroyed or never become mainstream, having not a care in the world for the people out there that have different opinions and very different needs. Some people just have this inability to put themselves in the other person's shoes. That I find to be very arrogant! 
Wake up and smell the roses!  |
You obviously have no idea who you are talking to.
I do this for a living. I've used just about every freakin' OS on the planet including many flavors of UNIX. I use Linux, UNIX, and Windows at an enterprise level doing very heavy stuff.
1) Linux IS NOT UNIX. SCO, AIX, HP, Solaris, QNX, BSD, those are all UNIX. Linux is a copycat pieced together wannabe UNIX.
2) Of the available OSes available, UNIX is the best OS you can find for a server.
3) Linux is a flaming piece of crap for the desktop. Choos the best tool for the job
1) You put UNIX on your heaviest servers
2) You put BSD on your little helper servers that you have to throw in to help administer things
3) You put more UNIX or Microsoft on your app servers
4) You put Windows on your desktops and Macs for the graphics/marketing/advertising people
Keep Linux the **** out of my shop. 
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Mr. Nice Guy
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"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
You obviously have no idea who you are talking to.
I do this for a living. I've used just about every freakin' OS on the planet including many flavors of UNIX. I use Linux, UNIX, and Windows at an enterprise level doing very heavy stuff.
1) Linux IS NOT UNIX. SCO, AIX, Solaris, QNX, BSD, those are all UNIX. Linux is a copycat pieced together wannabe UNIX.
2) Of the available OSes available, UNIX is the best OS you can find for a server.
3) Linux is a flaming piece of crap for the desktop. Choos the best tool for the job
1) You put UNIX on your heaviest servers
2) You put BSD on your little helper servers that you have to throw in to help administer things
3) You put more UNIX or Microsoft on your app servers
4) You put Windows on your desktops and Macs for the graphics/marketing/advertising people
Keep Linux the **** out of my shop. |
Once again, a bad attitude. Expect no reply. 
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Ari Rahikkala
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Unreported loss of streaming in atomic read operation
Oct 1999
time: 07:29
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(disclaimer: This post is more rambly than it should be, and you're unlikely to find any wisdom by reading it. If I could be bothered to, I would write it again. As it is, you'll just have to cope or not read it at all. But then again, it's not worth much less than the other posts in this thread...)
I can't really answer the question itself directly. I simply am not able to foretell what's going to happen in five, ten, twenty years. I can, however, give some free advice about what's going on in the present and a little bit about what has happened in the past... in fact, I'm going to start with an obscenely simplified account of the history of computing.
In the beginning of what's relevant to this story, there was UNIX. It was pretty close to being free as in beer, and also pretty close to being free as in speech, but both of these aspects were informal - parts of the computing culture, so to say. Then it became several Unixes, many (indeed most, I believe) of them becoming more expensive and proprietary as time went on. In the "end", to be UNIX basically meant that you were expensive, proprietary, slightly broken and subtly incompatible with everything else what called itself UNIX. Then along came MS and MS-DOS and Windows, which were even more proprietary, broken and incompatible with UNIX than UNIX itself, but also cheap. And since DOS and Windows did their job even though they broke every Thursday, people used them because they could afford MS but they couldn't afford UNIX.
Now along have come the BSDs and Linux. The BSDs are all that UNIXen were, except that they're free, open, reliable and compatible with each other. Linux is also free (and not only because of the culture, but also because of the licensing, which binds people legally), open, and reliable in the sense that it doesn't matter if something is broken now since in five minutes some Patagonian high school student will have patched it anyway (whether you will trust the patches of Patagonian high school students is your own choice). Well, except for Red Hat, which is basically making its own new triplet of Linux distros look like old UNIXen in all senses except propriety - Red Hat's new distros are expensive, bound to be broken, and probably will make everything incompatible with them.
I don't trust Red Hat terribly much. I do like them for two things: Being the first to bring a Linux-based OS to the masses, and paying Alan Cox's bills. However, beyond that, they seem to be replicating many of the mistakes that have had a part in diminishing the popularity of UNIX. They're making their main operating system releases really expensive and incompatible with a lot of other things. The Red Hat Linux distribution is basically all but dropped, and its maintenance is being moved to the community; since the technical base of Red Hat Linux is far from even being good (nightmarish package management, complicated configuration), the one thing that this will likely cause is even more suckiness. The company knows that.
So, instead of Red Hat, I'm putting my trust in the "lesser" (in terms of popularity, not merit) Linux vendors and communities. Mandrake is, AFAIK, doing a good job at building workable package management on top of the RPM architecture, and combines cutting-edgeness and desktop usability pretty well. So do some of the myriad other distros. And then there is Debian which is still, IMO, the very best Linux distribution available (even though I don't use it myself). A successful desktop-oriented fork of that, or a miraculous success of the Debian Desktop project, would be one of the best things to ever happen to Linux.
As for the purpose of this thread, I sort of forgot to include that anywhere along the way so I'll just write it up here... continuing this history of mine, Windows is now slightly (but only slightly) less proprietary than before, slightly more expensive than before, and less broken than before. However, it's also a lot more evil than before (*). Linux (non-RH), on the other hand, is unreliably reliable and very incompatible with Windows, but free (unless you use one of the new RH distros, but those should really be counted as UNIXen that are more broken and less proprietary than most) and open. BSD doesn't count since it's dying  (but if only more people knew about BSD and used it...). IOW, this situation is similar to the situation in the end of the Great Age of UNIX, but not the same. I intend to keep on sitting and watching (especially as this post would already have been mostly valid in what, 1997 or so?)... and Linuxing with Gentoo  .
(*) I don't mean evil as in "Burn Bill at the stake!" (+5, insightful), I mean evil as in licensing stuff and giving the source code that was supposed to have to be a secret to China, and etc..
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:29
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I think Linux will overtake MS and Unix, obviously first on servers, especially with the impending release of 2.6.x kernel, which will be superior to even 4.4BSD.
The desktop will be a harder nut to crack, imo 2.6.x will see Linux eat more and more into MS and a couple of years down the road, it could well be an even playing field. 4/5 years from now, I suspect Linux to be very dominent on the desktop, as X is either dumped or severely improved, and projects like KDE and Athene continue to improve and mature.
After that, I believe that the BSD's superiority on the server platform may well force Linux off, perhaps entirely onto the desktop, and after that, who knows? Certainly the possibilities of interpreted OS's with weird and wonderful threading are more open to UNIX based systems, particularly BSD and Linux because they tend to be far far more modular. Maybe even in a number of years, the BSD's will rule the roost, of course, then there's the HURD!! 
I think MS has a bright future, but not in operating systems, they should stick to what they do best, namely making software apps. They will possibly have to change their business model to include open sourcing, if not, certainly port apps to *nix platforms.
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:29
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--"Why are people complaining about the Linux UIs? They are bad, but then no worse than Windows XP from what I can see."
Mostly because they're used to how it is with Windows, so a different kind of badness strikes them as wrong.
Personally I don't think any of the current OSes had done enough with HID, and that definitely includes Apple. The best bet, when you can get away with it, is CLI. I've never seen a graphical interface I was truly pleased with.
In any case, I think Linux is a long way from challenging Windows on the desktop. There's too much inertia behind Windows, and that's before you take Microsoft's business practices into account.
Still, they've been kind of shooting themselves in the foot lately. A good chunk of the places I know of that are considering more *nix stuff are doing so because of Microsoft's latest licensing scheme.
This will help alleviate the problem above, btw. If more people end up using it at work, they'll get used to the problems of the UI, just like they have with Windows.
On the server end Linux and BSD are going to do pretty well, as they have been. Microsoft may finally be getting its act together with 2003, but they've got a big reputation to live down first. This, of course, is where their "embrace and extend" philosophy will help them, although not until they fix their licensing.
However, I think both ends are in for some major changes in the next few years. The way computing is moving (massive storage, fast networks, multiple processor arrays/grids/clusters) is going to require some pretty fundamental reworks if we want things to scale properly.
Wraith
"Hello. My $NAME is ~inigo-montoya. You killed my process. Prepare to vi."
-- The Unix's Bride
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20-07-2003 04:46
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