20-07-2003 03:24									#1
	Screenshots from RP (with unit distributions) Full PM-box? Change here!

Here are the screenshots RP gave us July 19 (~ Turn 128). I've included the composition of all the stacks. Anything else is either a lone unit, or a bunch of them in a Galley. There are probably some slight errors, but it should give everyone a picture (ha!) of what's going happening on "our new front".

East:




West:

Last edited by Dominae on 20-07-2003 at 03:33

	20-07-2003 03:27									#2
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Well, it's nice we have screenies from them. But I'd be even better if the attachment worked...

	20-07-2003 03:28									#3
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Coming...

	20-07-2003 03:56									#4
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It is clear that RP cannot hold without direct assistance from us at the earliest possible date. If we do not send everything possible to them, now, they will not be there to any great extent later, and we will have lost a great deal of potential in our partner.

	20-07-2003 04:22									#5
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Them's big odds. I guess GoW has hunted some barbs with their riders.

can this be pulled off? this will be something, thats for sure.

Looks very dicey on the western front.



The game is a whole lot more interesting now...


edit: hello directions

Last edited by asleepathewheel on 20-07-2003 at 04:41

	20-07-2003 04:24									#6
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Yes, we should ship over all we can mobilize, and quickly build more. Will we get gifted Bilbao and Toledo as was suggested yesterday?

	20-07-2003 04:40									#7
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Toledo is dependant on GoW, if GoW goes for it, they will gift it to us (before GoW enters the 9 tile borders). We will have NM for a turn to pass units through, and be giving up Inchon for a turn to get RP some cats and their 2 Horses back to Pamplona (pending approval of course).

	20-07-2003 04:56									#8
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Forgot to mention, they will be giving us Santiago in hopes that ND will honor the Lux agreement and at least give us 1 turn warning.

RP is almost certain to lose Santiago, Vigo, and Leon. If they try to hold them, they would probably lose everything before we can get there. Hopefully ND tries to hold those cities, which would eat up troops. Roads will be pillaged to keep ND's slow movers slow, perhaps uncovering their Ansars for counterattack, or at least slowing down their attack.

I think RP can hold Zaragosa and Pamplona if they let us handle the W defense against GoW. If GoW doesn't attack us, ND is basically toast, but will make gains early in the war. If GoW attacks, we should be able to hold them at bay indefinitely (losing Toledo/Bilbao). A good portion of our second wave would be available to help out against ND in either case.

	20-07-2003 04:59									#9
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With the Storm's permission, I'd like to switch almost all of the Storm's production capacity to military uses, including abandoning most of our work on harbors and such (although Hurricane still needs a harbor to allow it to operate efficiently once it stops working two mountains) and abandoning our wonder prebuild plans for Tempest. If GoW starts fighting us directly, we're going to need everything we can possibly get, and just taking on ND won't be a piece of cake. My current thought is to prioritize pikes and MedInfs over knights except where production capacities tend to favor knights, since raw fighting power is going to be more important than keeping maintenance costs down and we can get lots of knights through upgrades.

	20-07-2003 05:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Toledo is dependant on GoW, if GoW goes for it, they will gift it to us (before GoW enters the 9 tile borders). We will have NM for a turn to pass units through, and be giving up Inchon for a turn to get RP some cats and their 2 Horses back to Pamplona (pending approval of course).

The only way I would even consider handing cats over to RP is if we can count on their concentrating a stack big enough to almost guarantee a successful stand, and I don't see that happening based on the information they've provided. Have I missed something?

If a stack trying to use our cats doesn't hold, our cats might end up doing some initial damage to our foes but would most likely do far greater damage to us in the longer term (not to mention our inability to use them to defend our forces and support our offensives). I'd rather keep our cats in the company of huge numbers of GS pikemen and/or knights where we can count on our cats' staying on our side of the war.

	20-07-2003 05:27									#11
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I agree Nathan.. Even Tempest on military.

I wasn't expecting RP to be that weak. At least they are average militarily (with a high % of Pikes)... so ND/GoW must be in pretty bad shape themselves.

With the Cats, I'd feel safe if they kept them all in Zaragosa or Pamplona. They should be able to have 10+ units in those two cities at all times if everythign else goes as planned. If they are going to try to hold Toledo though, I agree with not giving the cats.

	20-07-2003 06:04									#12
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RP, if I'm not mistake will let us plan out all of the military moves, thus we will place them where they can do damage but not fall into the wrong hands unless all is lost. At this point, anything we can do to help RP should be done, as they are low on strength.

	20-07-2003 06:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Forgot to mention, they will be giving us Santiago in hopes that ND will honor the Lux agreement and at least give us 1 turn warning.

We did tell ND that we expected a warning, right? I know it was decided after we did a couple of the lux trades, I'm not sure ND got the update... I'll check the log.

DeepO

	20-07-2003 06:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO We did tell ND that we expected a warning, right? I know it was decided after we did a couple of the lux trades, I'm not sure ND got the update... I'll check the log. DeepO

I don't think we agreed to that.....from what I can tell from a cursory glance........

	20-07-2003 06:17									#15
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no indeed.. a bit of a problem. They might want to avoid attacking us, but still.. they know what is coming once they see us getting cities from RP

DeepO

	20-07-2003 06:26									#16
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If ND attacks us, at least it would help us with happiness (and, in the longer term, war weariness) issues.

I had another thought on the cats: we could arrange to hand them over to RP and then take them back to rejoin our forces on Bob. We'd very likely lose some gold needing to crank up the luxury slider during the two one-turn "wars" (unless peace can be restored and luxuries gifted so quickly as to make it a non-issue for us), but it would give us a few more cats on Bob without having to use our galley capacity to transport them. (And if RP reaches a point where we want them to use the cats themselves before we take the cats back, that, too, would be an option.) I'm not positive that it's a good idea, but it might be worth considering.

	20-07-2003 06:57									#17
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something like that was discussed, only leaving the cats into RPs hands... but an interesting idea. It seems RP is going to need all the help it can get, though.

DeepO

	20-07-2003 07:33									#18
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Well, I think we could get the cats back when we need them, but we RP certainly needs the defense more than we need them taking up cargo space.

Once we beat back the invasion, then we can take them back when the assault on the cities begins.

	20-07-2003 07:40									#19
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Will we miss 6 cats? RP will be chomping at the bit to do a little damage on their own. Those 6 cats, with a couple they will build, would form part of the basis of their ability to strike back. Or do we want to do all the fighting into ND?

	20-07-2003 09:07									#20
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The problem is that we only want RP using the cats if we can be almost absolutely sure the cats won't fall into enemy hands in the process. Having six or seven of our cats (there are seven, not six, in the Inchon area) fall into enemy hands would be a major disaster.

	20-07-2003 09:24									#21
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Agreed. We make it clear to dejon that those cats join their main body and are never to be risked. Their main body outnumbers the Ansars when gathered. Zaragoza is safe, for now.

Once we get to Toledo, another large group of pike and medinf join the main body. We hope that they are still holding Zaragoza and Pamplona by then.

	20-07-2003 10:50									#22
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I think this is where this belongs.
From dejon of RP.

quote: Strategic Summary Notes/Legend ======================================= Turn 0 - 30BC Turn 1 - 10BC Turn 2 - 10AD Turn 3 - 30AD Units referred to by numberpad relations to proximate cities, RP unit names in brackets. Unfinalized orders marked with an asterisk* [e] - Elite unit; [r] - Regular unit ; [c] - Conscript; all unmarked are veterans. Anyone is free to offer suggestions to questions I pose in the orders or the "Concerns" at the bottom. "Turn 0 - RP" is all our detailed orders and information for the current turn. The remainder of the GS/RP turn arrangements are at the bottom. ======================================= Turn 0 - RP Build Completions --------------------------------------- New Madrid completes Pike - start another Pike Santiago complete Pike - start another Pike (not that it matters) Unit Orders --------------------------------------- Galley by Inchon(Santa Maria) -unload horses (Armada Rider 1 and Watch Rider 2) to Inchon-3 *-move 488 Waiting to move into Inchon was discussed, but research was to be done on where it would end up. Galley 322 from Bilbao(Pinta) -move 889 Harass GoW galleys Galley 44 from Santiago(Nina) -move 888 Play on ND nerves by travelling coastline. (They don't know its empty.) Warrior[c] 999 from Bilbao(Bulgar Warriors) -disband Save a gpt, remove a possible promotion/GL generator for GoW Horse 7 from Bilbao(Watch Rider) -move 3 into Bilbao Will get moved to Pamplona when city gift is accepted. Stack 89 from Toledo(Bash stack) -move 2 Going to Toledo. May get whisked to Pamplona by gifting Toledo, or may defend/counterattack against GoW stack - uncertain at this time. Stack composition: 4 Pike - 3 reg, 1 vet 4 MedInf - 1 reg, 3 vet Worker 99 from Toledo(El Nino) -move 1 Worker 6 from Toldeo(Small Fry) -move 4 Will add to Toledo for city size 7 defense bonus. 2 MedInf 2 from Toledo(Bashing Maul 5 & 6) -move 8 May get whisked to Pamplona by gifting Toledo, or may defend/counterattack against GoW stack - uncertain at this time. 2 Pikes in Toledo(Madrid Guard & Pamplona Guard[r]) -no changes (already forted) Defenders. May get whisked to Pamplona by gifting Toledo, or may defend/counterattack against GoW stack - uncertain at this time. Worker in New Madrid(History Guy Serfs) -add to city Defense bonus 2 Pikes in New Madrid(new Pike & Valencia Guard) -fortify Defenders - will get whisked to Pamplona when we gift city (in Turn 1) Pike[r] 47 from New Madrid(Salamanca Guard[r]) -move 441 (into Pamplona) Other plans in place for Toledo/Madrid - return to Pamplona Pike 1 from Pamplona(Merida Guard) -move 9 (into Pamplona) -fortify Defender Pike[r] and MedInf[r] 44 from Barcelona(Barcelona Garrison & Bashing Maul 7) -move 668 Going to New Madrid - will get whisked to Pamplona when we gift city (in Turn 1) 2 Workers 1 from Barcelona(Castor and Pollox) -irrigate Nothing better to do - sticking to worker planning. Worker 444 from Barcelona(Salamanca Worker) -road Nothing better to do - sticking to worker planning. 2 Workers 9 from Murcia(King's Serfs and Barcelona Worker) -roading, complete in 2 turns Pike[r] in Murcia(Murcia Guard) -no changes(already forted) Warrior[r] 1 from Cordoba -move 9 (into Cordoba) Spear[r] in Sevilla -no changes(already forted) Pike[r] in Merida -move 998 Going to Pamplona for defense. Spear[r] 9 from Merida -move 889 Going to Pamplona for upgrade, defense. 2 Workers 98 from Sevilla(Visigoth Slaves and Dejon Workers) -road Building southern road to existing and second iron Worker 7777 from Merida(Iron Man) *-build Iron colony This move may change, as we can get iron from GS if needed. Spear[r] 112 from Vigo(Lisboa Guard) -move 8 Going to Vigo for defense. Pike[r] 7 from Vigo(Iron Guard) -move 3 (into Vigo) Defender Worker 8 from Vigo(Winter's Serfs) -move 2 (into Vigo) Just to save him. Might add to Vigo, but can't sustain size 7 for long due to food. 2 Workers 9 from Vigo -move 966 (into Leon) Saving them. Pike 88[r] from Vigo(Vigo Guard) -move 3 Going to Vigo for defense. MedInf[r] 2 from Santiago(Smashing Maul 7) *-move 36 (into Leon) Could switch tasks with Sword, which is better? Sword[e] 2 from Santiago(The Last Cutting Edge) *-pillage road Slow down ND units after capturing Santiago. Could switch tasks with Sword, which is better? 1st Pike[r] in Santiago -move 932 (into Leon) Defender. ND will not know the total defense in Leon, just that it is defended, and Santiago is not. 2nd Pike[r] in Santiago -move 6 -pillage road Slow down ND units after capturing Santiago - deny slow moving units quick access. Catapult in Santiao -move 669 (into Zaragoza) Defend most important city in area. Stack 6 from Santiago -move 69 (into Zaragoza) Defend most important city in area. Stack composition: 2 Pikes - 1 reg, 1 vet 6 MedInf - all vet 2 Pikes[r] in Zaragoza -no changes(already forted) 1st Worker 2 from Zaragoza(GodKing Worker) -move 8 (into Zaragoza) -add to city City Size 7 defense bonus 2nd Worker 2 from Zaragoza(Duke Aidun Cian Serfs) *-move 33 Going to Gold mtn(6 from Pamplona) 2 Workers 6 from Pamplona(GT Worker & NW Worker) -mining, complete in 8 turns City builds --------------------------------------- City Name(shields per turn) Build item(shields accumulated) in X turns - rush cost, if affordable Bilbao(1) Spearman(4) in 16 turns Toledo(7) Walls(14) in 1 New Madrid(11) Pikeman(0) in 3 We'll rush next turn before gifting city Barcelona(5) Galley(26) in 1 Pamplona(11) MedInf(22) in 2 - 72 Zaragoza(11) MedInf(30) in 1 Leon(5) Pike(5) in 5 - 100 Santiago(2) Pike(0) in 15 Vigo(6) *Cat(11) in 2 - with GS cats coming, we may want to change this Salamanca(1) Cat(3) in 17 - 68 Merida(3) Pike(16) in 5 - 56 Sevilla(2) *Spear(2) in 9 - 72 Could change to Warrior - upgradeable to MedInf Cordoba(1) *Spear(4) in 16 - 64 Could change to Warrior - upgradeable to MedInf Murcia(1) Spear(3) in 17 - 68 Could change to Warrior - upgradeable to MedInf Valencia(3) Pike(3) in 9 - 108 Diplomacy orders --------------------------------------- Gift Bilbao and Santiago to GS at end of turn, accepted (sell any cultural improvements first) *Break peace deal with ND to declare war. GS members testing WW results of this ======================================= Turn 1 - GS Accept Bilbao and Santiago from RP Move cats beside Inchon (6 or 9 of Inchon) Gift Inchon to RP (sell any cultural improvements first) Gift Engineering to RP Load forces onto galleys, set sail for New Madrid ======================================= Turn 1 - RP Accept Inchon from GS Attack/capture GS cats next to Inchon Move all horses and cats into Inchon Offer peace, Inchon, RoP, and luxes to GS ======================================= Turn 2 - GS Accept peace, Inchon, RoP, luxes from RP Land first wave of units 6 of New Madrid ======================================= Turn 2 - RP Gift New Madrid to GS(sell any cultural improvements first) ======================================= Turn 3 - GS Accept New Madrid Move units through Move settler to 33 of Madrid ======================================= Turn 3 - RP ======================================= Turn 4 - GS Build port city 33 of New Madrid Gift New Madrid to RP ======================================= Turn 4 - RP Accept New Madrid ======================================= Concerns We are banking on ND playing their offensive cautiously. If they go for Leon straight off, it will be trouble. From there they can attack Pamplona next turn. Leon will only have two defenders(1 pike, 1 medinf) next turn when ND has their turn. The next turn Pamplona will have 2 pikes, 2 horses and 6 cats before ND could attack. Should we starting moving the New Madrid defenders there now to beef the defenses? Which unit is better to pillage the road south of Santiago? The sword or the MedInf? Unsure of diplomacy options allowable in war - will we be able to offer RoP, luxes and Inchon when at war? Can we do multiple deals? Galley on GS shore - move into Inchon as well, or sail around? Don't really need Iron colony now for backup iron source - orders for that worker? Can only afford one unit rush this turn - which is best? I'm thinking the Pike in Leon, despite the high cost.

	20-07-2003 12:24									#23
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that is certainly a detailed list.

My first thought is: I hope they rename the units, we don't want ND to know where they came from. Oh the vigo guard is there, that means that Vigo is undefended. Granted this might irritate the RPers, but they can name them something less specific, I would think.

I think they should change the spears to warriors in the southern cities. Cheaper and we need bodies to man the posts and eat attack turns. Plus upgrade and they can fight back.

Can ansars and riders blitz? I never use either civ and make sure they're eliminate before chivalry.

I agree with the arrangement that we've set up, the gifting of cities and what not. Is there anything else to discuss abou the situation right now? Can we give RP the go-ahead to finish the turn, its been a looong time.

also, I saw that they have a large number of workers, many of which will be in cities. Would it be prudent to disband some so that mi's and pikes can come out consecutive turns without blowing tons of cash? I'm not saying all the workers, but maybe a handful would help out. Though I'm not sure of their cash flow, might be useless then.

I know that Aeson told them how to change the builds on the turns start, do they know how to short rush?

	20-07-2003 13:42									#24
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I explained about the short rush to dejon. They are planning on building the middle 9 of a Pike in NM before the city exchange this way I think.

	20-07-2003 13:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel also, I saw that they have a large number of workers, many of which will be in cities. Would it be prudent to disband some so that mi's and pikes can come out consecutive turns without blowing tons of cash? I'm not saying all the workers, but maybe a handful would help out. Though I'm not sure of their cash flow, might be useless then.

I'd ask them to let the workers join the cities where they can.

	20-07-2003 13:57									#26
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They are going to need workers. They have joined some that did not need joining (new madrid).

	20-07-2003 14:04									#27
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quote: Which unit is better to pillage the road south of Santiago? The sword or the MedInf?

I think it would be better to lose the Reg Med Inf than Elite Sword, especially since it will probably end up defending in Leon.

quote: Unsure of diplomacy options allowable in war - will we be able to offer RoP, luxes and Inchon when at war? Can we do multiple deals?

Probably can't do the per turn stuff the first turn, at least that's how it is in single player. The peace and cities can be done at the same time though.

quote: Galley on GS shore - move into Inchon as well, or sail around?

I think it would be more useful sailing around. Would meet up with GoW's galleys if they pull back, and certainly wouldn't end up blocking any landing sites.

quote: Don't really need Iron colony now for backup iron source - orders for that worker?

Really no idea. Moving workers to add to cities might be the best bet in many cases. Otherwise, just keep improving terrain for city use.

quote: Can only afford one unit rush this turn - which is best? I'm thinking the Pike in Leon, despite the high cost.

Leon is a good bet to fall. If ND wants to attack it with Ansars, it's gone. A risky use of money.

Best use would probably be short rushing a Pike in Pamplona (rush cat, switch to Pike).

Also, (short?) rushing a Pike in Toledo would do wonders if the city needs to be gifted to transport units to Pamplona's defense.

------------

In general I would suggest Pikes, Pikes, Pikes, and more Pikes. Toledo, Pamplona, Vigo, and Barcelona at least, short rushing whenever possible and worthwhile. We can supply cats as long as they have the Pikes to cover them.

	20-07-2003 14:10									#28
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Actually, Toledo can't make the Pike in time unless they full rush it. If they have a Barracks there, probably still worth it. If not, a Cat.

	20-07-2003 17:13									#29
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War- don't love it?

And this time even more exciting than the war of Voxian aggression...

I still don't feel comfortable with pushing GoW to attack us- because I still believe they won't keep on fighting once ND falls. And besides, even if they do- we'll have a better chance defending against them on the mountain range, more to the east, although this would mean our galley access route will be broken...

I really really hope GoW decided not to attack- this would be so much easier for us, because even if RP ships everything they have against ND- they're in a bad situation.

The challenge, I think, is to get as few towns from RP as possible- to allow GoW take 1 or 2 towns (even Toledo maybe- its not a big loss to the overall war effort)- so that they will be satisfied with that, and their desire for war against us will greatly diminish. What we'll have to keep in mind is how to make sure they won't crave for more, and that whatever they are allowed to take isn't going to hurt the defense of the core.

	21-07-2003 02:00									#30
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One comment from me: They should not declare war on ND, let ND attack them instead. nye's testing seems to indicate they will not get a negative WW bonus if they attack themselves...

oh, BTW nye, I agree the post is right here, however copying it into the log would probably be best too. Also, the chat log for #MilOps might be best, I think I saw most of it and can do it if you are short on time, however it could be that it continued for a while after I left...

DeepO