20-07-2003 06:29									#1
	Renegotiation of Treaty with NYE of GS... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is the renegotiation of the treaty with NYE of GS:

Arnelos> NYE
notyoueither> hi
Arnelos> there is one small issue that seems to have cropped up among our roleplay camp (we have a sizable one) concerning hte treaty
notyoueither> shoot
Arnelos> they have a concern, being roleplayers, that we're gifting "catholic" lands into the hands of a "non-christian" civ... Pope Calixtus I (History Guy) is particularly upset about this... perhaps we could asauge them
Arnelos> with something completely meaningless in-game
notyoueither> hmmm, anything in mind?
Arnelos> two things: GS "converts" and you get to have several cardinals that can vote on the next pope or, at the least, those lands "remain catholic, respecting local cultural traditions"
Arnelos> History Guy is aiming for the former, but he might settle for the latter
notyoueither> i think that the storm can respect the cuctoms of the local populous
Arnelos> since it's completely meaningless in game and it resolves a problem our roleplayers have, I'd think it's possible
notyoueither> the church is valued of course, to maintain order and to supply sucor to the masses during these dark times
notyoueither> btw, we are leaning towards leaving as much of th south in rp hands as possible, and take more in the north
Arnelos> that makes more sense corruption-wise
notyoueither> we understand the importance of the land to your people
notyoueither> well, we could have put a govt centre down in the south, or the north
notyoueither> the north makes more sense
Arnelos> personally, I'd just want to decide the boundaries of the lands based upon corruption to various capitals... may even placate your "economics" crowd
notyoueither> that makes sense
Arnelos> my personal recommendation is that you put your FP somewhere near where Bilbao currently is and stretch your lands north along the East
notyoueither> what is being discussed is that we occupy toledo to defend it, and free up your entire army for pamplona-zaragoza
notyoueither> we would return toledo when the danger is past
Arnelos> ah
notyoueither> we would need nm for a turn or two, to speed our troops to the front
notyoueither> then it is better you have it, unless toledo falls
notyoueither> which i doubt it will
Arnelos> yeah, we'll see
notyoueither> if we can get there quickly
notyoueither> 16 or 18 combat units on the way
Arnelos> that's quite a sum
notyoueither> first wave
Arnelos> I think we just won over History Guy hew: ... that will help.
notyoueither> very good
notyoueither> arne, can we chat this evening? about the treaty?
ArnIDLE> yes
ArnIDLE> but only between now and ~7 p.m. my time
ArnIDLE> so in the next few hours
notyoueither> cool. maybe after the strat chat breaks up
ArnIDLE> I have to be out of here by then
notyoueither> oh. ok
ArnIDLE> *IF* it breaks up by then
notyoueither> i will nip out soon.
notyoueither> ok, arne
ArnIDLE> 4BACK (for now)
notyoueither> ok.
notyoueither> the treaty.
notyoueither> 1st issue
notyoueither> most of the clauses would have to be subject to other agreements with other civs
notyoueither> tech, for instance
notyoueither> if we trade for a tech with a nt clause
Arnelos> true
notyoueither> the nap would never be subject to
Arnelos> I suppose that can be added
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> 2nd issue
Arnelos> I didn't even think about that... knew there were things I was overlooking
notyoueither> would rp rather keep land in the south and give up land from nd?
Arnelos> That's what it sounds like most of the team is arguing
notyoueither> the north and midlands of nd
notyoueither> they are for it?
notyoueither> or they are arguing over it?
Arnelos> it's one of those things where Togas and I are agreeable either way, but MOST of the team seems rather partial to our current lands
notyoueither> we understand that. it is perfectly reasonable
notyoueither> i knew it would be an issue after i thought about it for a short bit
Arnelos> The way our team works, there are a lot of roleplayers who've grown rather attached to those lands over time.
notyoueither> understood
notyoueither> we want a partner, more than a servant
Arnelos> the landswap seems to have been an automatic sell to more gameplay-oriented people, not so much for the dedicated rpers
Arnelos> yes
* notyoueither nods
notyoueither> we would seek to maintain coastal outposts, and return other cities, like toledo when the need for us to defend it passes
notyoueither> long run, i think the only important position would be nm 6 9
notyoueither> and a patch of jungle 9 9 9 9 of nm
notyoueither> brb
Arnelos> ok
Arnelos> Togas just came back on... but he keeps losing his connection. We'll keep chatting and I'll relay it to Togas with logs
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> so. to be clear. is it likely that rp would want to preserve historic lands in exchange for nd lands.
notyoueither> ?
Arnelos> yes
notyoueither> cool
notyoueither> 3rd issue
notyoueither> confidentiality
Arnelos> (another thing I forgot to write in)
Arnelos> I knew I was forgetting stuff
notyoueither> we would like the treaty to be kept under wraps until gs agrees to make it's existance known
Arnelos> yeah, that was the original discussion
notyoueither> and then, that it's extent would still remain under wraps
Arnelos> correct
notyoueither> great
Arnelos> funny thing about that... you should see the post I wrote in the RP forum telling people to do just that
notyoueither> heheh
Arnelos> because it's critical to our own security that ND and GoW not realize what's up until later
Arnelos> especially Lego
notyoueither> i have to fetch something from our forum
notyoueither> that is very true. we do not want a 3 way with lego joining the bad guys
Arnelos> well, and Lego has been magnanimous enough to send us 150 gold to help defeat ND and GoW. It's pocketchange, but we won't turn it down.
Arnelos> as dejon already told you... Lego has a non-interference agreement with ND and GoW which they signed several turns back.
Arnelos> the agreement is basically that Lego is not allowed to put a single unit on Bob and ND and GoW are not allowed to put a single unit on Legos
Arnelos> they can't accept cities, either
notyoueither> but, nd could void the treaty
notyoueither> with lego agreeing
Arnelos> something like that
notyoueither> 4th issue. Posted by Aeson.
notyoueither> 'Also I would prefer it if the clause to include something along the lines of "Either team may allow the other to forgo declaring war if it serves the alliance". It may serve us better if RP doesn't have to declare war with Lego in the future, and thus can be our go between (trading, investigating cities, ect.)... situations like that.'
notyoueither> ok
Arnelos> in fact... there's something I'm willing to spill the beans on
Arnelos> We've had an agreement with Lego since the start of the game
Arnelos> Lego is not allowed to invade RP Team until I believe 1000 A.D.
Arnelos> not that they would
notyoueither> that is very good
notyoueither> it could keep them out of the war for longer
Arnelos> they are also responsible for giving us technologies at discount... though we note that ZargonX hasn't been as good about upholding that part of the treaty as Nimitz and Spiffor were with vondrack
notyoueither> hmmm.
notyoueither> any chance they will give you chivalry?
Arnelos> they are bound by the nt clause with GoW
Arnelos> same as you
notyoueither> ok
Arnelos> Education is the tech we were somewhat miffed they didn't trade us
Arnelos> but they did recently give us 2 techs for free I believe, so we didn't complain about Education, just politely asked them for an offer
Arnelos> of course, the 2 techs for free was in return for our promise not to build Michaelangelo's, I believe
Arnelos> they REALLY REALLY want it, not having luxuries
notyoueither> yes. we are aware of that one
notyoueither> 5th issue. Posted by Arrian
notyoueither> 'The rest of it looks good, although I'd amend clause 2 of section 1 (neither nation shall even declare war on the other) to include the possibility of a DoW being necessary for cooperative purposes - such as maybe exchanging some cataputs or something along those lines.
Arnelos> yes, that one has been discussed in the milOps channel, I see
Arnelos> agreed on that
Arnelos> it just never occured to me because I didn't know about that little trick
notyoueither> heh
notyoueither> Article VI
notyoueither> how do we rework this?
Arnelos> lemme look at the treaty
Arnelos> ah, exchange of territory
Arnelos> well... what exactly did you have in mind as the new demarkations?
notyoueither> ok. we specify that certain lands of Spain be trasferred to GS for protection during the war.
notyoueither> All but Bilbao to be returned to Spain
notyoueither> unless you guys really want Bilbao back.
Arnelos> that only covers the most southern regions of Bob
Arnelos> we don't NEED Bilbao if it helps as a port for you guys
Arnelos> it's a good port for you guys to use if it survives (which it may not)
notyoueither> we would have rights to build and keep ports from nm 3 3 and north of there
notyoueither> neither of us would accept a flip, and would return any cities which did flip
notyoueither> (if we don;t have a choice)
Arnelos> got it
notyoueither> Marlowa
notyoueither> Arneblanca
notyoueither> Neu Theban
notyoueither> Trippolis
notyoueither> Mavdad
notyoueither> their environs, and land south of them are to be granted to the Nobles of Spain
notyoueither> that extends Spain up to the ND mountains
Arnelos> ok, and to GS?
notyoueither> most of the north
notyoueither> we have our eye on a govt centre
notyoueither> maybe some other bits and pieces could be swapped back and forth
Arnelos> build your FP around where Lux and ND had their contesting cities?
notyoueither> near there
notyoueither> would need two things
notyoueither> victory
notyoueither> and a gkl
notyoueither> *gl
Arnelos> you just might get a GL defending us... there will certainly be enough die rolling
notyoueither> what we are hoping, arnelos, is that Espana never has reason to regret this treaty.
Arnelos> right
Arnelos> from the looks of it, we won't
notyoueither> i hope so.
notyoueither> i have had my differences with togas in the past, but I hope that is the past.
Arnelos> with Togas, seemingly it is
notyoueither>
Arnelos> he seems to be fully behind this
notyoueither> is there someone else mad at me?
Arnelos> not at you
notyoueither> at gs?
Arnelos> as I said, some of the RP'ers have wounded prides at the moment due to the ND and GoW invasions
notyoueither> ahh. yes. np
Arnelos> handing over land to GS was something they didn't want to do... there are 1-3 people who'd rather just go the way of Lux
Arnelos> History Guy was one of them, but he seems to have been won over
notyoueither>
Arnelos> there are a few others
notyoueither> hopefully, we can put them at ease
Arnelos> MrWIA is also unhappy, but he's most upset that we even signed an MPP with GoW
notyoueither> haha
Arnelos> he doesn't seem to have anything against GS as far as I can tell
notyoueither> OK. DeepO's comments
notyoueither> Article VII
notyoueither> is missing...
notyoueither> we need some points on agreements with other nations as well, and even on proposals from / to other nations. E.g. we can't have RP signing a MPP with Vox, if we want to invade them later on. Further, we can't have RP sell techs if we want to kepe them secret. Stuff like that.
Arnelos> I see
Arnelos> should then all agreements with other civs be mutual agreement?
Arnelos> or only certain types?
notyoueither> dont know
notyoueither> tech can only be traded with other civs with the approval of GS?
notyoueither> we will be researching most of it
Arnelos> true
Arnelos> I think that was already covered in the techsharing area, though
Arnelos> lemme check
Arnelos> oh... I took that part out
Arnelos> because I wasn't sure how to word it
Arnelos> was that in the notes?
Arnelos> no, it's not
Arnelos> odd
notyoueither> yeah
notyoueither> what about mpps and naps?
Arnelos> well, I was thinking about adding a clause whereby whoever originally researched a tech would have control over who it was traded to
Arnelos> or at least veto
Arnelos> MPPs and NAPs... mutual agreement?
notyoueither> i would like to. not sure if gs would accept it though
notyoueither> can rp live with a gs veto on nap's and mpp's?
Arnelos> I believe so
notyoueither> we may be planning a war, and not want entanglements.
Arnelos> that would be consistent with other areas of the treaty if it's an issue
notyoueither> ok. btw, i will leave you to write these things in. so that you guys are happy with it.
Arnelos> np
notyoueither> we have been pleased with your writting style
Arnelos> probably not until much later this evening
notyoueither> i might veer towards legalese
Arnelos> as I mentioned in the notes, I've been trying to make it as clear and unambigous as possible... but cover all the bases... which inevitably make it look "legalise"
notyoueither> you are doing a fine job of it
Arnelos> I happen to be of the opinion that making it vague would only cause arguments down the line over interpretation
Arnelos> and that's something I'd rather we avoided
notyoueither> re tech, could rp live with a gs veto on trades?
Arnelos> probably, if that's an issue. We will be sharing all techs between RP and GS, so it shouldn't be THAT much of an issue if you guys are providing techs.
notyoueither> agreed on the avoiding arguments
Arnelos> I'll add it and see what RP thinks
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> back to Article VII
notyoueither> Some paragraph on that we can't foresee all situations, and in case discussion occurs on some point not covered here, both will do their best to find a mutual beneficial solution, with GS having end-responsibility
Arnelos> oh, about the notes... any mention of the money concerns I raised or is it better to just leave that out?
Arnelos> ok, sounds workable on article VII
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> other things will come with time, trust, and friendship
Arnelos> true
Arnelos> I think my original thought was that what you just suggested as a paragraph in Article VII is implied, but it wouldn't hurt to state it
notyoueither> well, about note 1
notyoueither> it is difficult to put words together that require certain things without humiliation for one of us
Arnelos> true enough
Arnelos> I figure a number of these things can be worked out seperately... my thought is that we only put into the permanent treaty rules we want to be... well... permanent
notyoueither> i think clause 3 of tech is about as direct as we need
notyoueither> agreed
notyoueither> i read clause 3 that gs directs research, after discussion
Arnelos> exactly
notyoueither> in practice, it will often be us saying we can get x and y, best to shoot for z
Arnelos> something like that
notyoueither> "* note: Should there be an article about money and gifts/loans or can we just handle that as situations arise and on the basis of mutual trust and cooperation? Also up to you."
notyoueither> i think that we should work back and forth as the game goes on
Arnelos> right
notyoueither> right now, you need gold for rushes, but we need it for knights
notyoueither> it is a turn by turn decision of what does most for the 'union'
Arnelos> which can be decided by the partners together, ok that works - no need for it to be in the agreement, which was my instinct. I just included it in the notes in the event that was a concern.
Arnelos> because I figured someone might raise it
notyoueither> ok
Arnelos> btw... I was working on something of a theme for our avatars that some of you guys might be interested in (should avatars ever come back...)
notyoueither> yes?
Arnelos> I've made a rather nice set of King Theoden avatars for Togas... working on other Rohirrim avatars for other RP people
notyoueither> Rohirrim?
Arnelos> if you guys do indeed show up and this thing blows wide open, related temporary avatars might be cute. Just a propaganda thing I was cooking
Arnelos> Lord of the Rings
notyoueither> ohhhhh. that would be wonderful *clap clap*
Arnelos> you see... we're the ones holed up inside Helm's Deep getting our asses besieged
notyoueither> are we the elves, or are we darker...
Arnelos> and GoW bears some... resemblance... to orcs
notyoueither> please go on
Arnelos> the analogy breaks down in several places, but oh well
Arnelos> you guys could use elven and Gondor avatars
Arnelos> the implication being that ND and GoW are the hordes of orcs created to destroy the world of men
notyoueither> being elves would explain the fixation on nature, and the cotrol over winds and seas
notyoueither> hehe
Arnelos> We had an "alliance" with GoW... Saruman?
notyoueither> heh
Arnelos> it was just a cute idea I came up with while watching the Two Towers in the cheap theatre with friends last night
Arnelos> $2.50 for that movie is great
notyoueither> i am waiting to see them all. 1 2 3, the same night
Arnelos> the dvd's?
notyoueither> unfortunately, 1 came on tv one night
notyoueither> or in a theatre
Arnelos> the dvd's all three of them would be something like 10-11 hours put together
notyoueither> theatres may well do that
Arnelos> that's a daylong activity
Arnelos> but I agree it would be great
Arnelos> so yeah... if we ever get avatars back, we could certainly work on that
notyoueither> i will cut the log of this before this point <<<<<
Arnelos> got it
notyoueither> i see deepo is pestering dejon to death
Arnelos> I need to make a log as well
notyoueither> he is very enthuisatic
Arnelos> lol
notyoueither> please don;t take him the wrong way
Arnelos> why would we do that?
notyoueither> english is also his second language
Arnelos> ah

	20-07-2003 06:33									#2
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SUMMARY

- Spain keeps ALL of its traditional territory, minus Bilbao
- Spain will claim all Neu Demogyptican lands from Neu Theben and the ND mountains south.
- GS will claim northern Bob and will place their FP likely where ND and Lux once had their dueling cities
- GS will claim ports along the Eastern coast of Bob so they can land troops to take out ND and GoW.
- Several alterations to the treaty, including a few veto issues to align our foreign policies with one another
- I told GS about 2 aspects of a long-standing treaty we have with Lego (that Lego is not permitted to attack us for a looooong time to come and that they have to give us techs at reduced price)

Read the log for the specifics.

	20-07-2003 06:41									#3
	Support Apolyton

Yeah, you won me over.

Superb. This is splendid news. The Papal Line of Demarcation will be signed across the mountains, if you like.

I'm very pleased that we keep our land and that we get Neu Theban! That makes this whole thing worth while!

	20-07-2003 08:12									#4
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Sounds great

	20-07-2003 10:52									#5
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We keep our lands AND we get Neu Dem's lands?!

They convert to Catholosism?!

They're sending an initial force of 16-18 units?!

This is the best news I've heard all week!

I could not be happier.

--Togas

	20-07-2003 17:27									#6
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The initial force of 16-18 actually scares me. That they're willing to send that much so soon almost makes it sound as if....they plan to get a piece of the spoils...

On the other hand, we're gonna die if we don't make an agreement with them, so we really have nothing to lose.

Daniel de la Civ

	20-07-2003 17:50									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The revised treaty:

quote: Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain Purpose The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain. Article I - Non-Aggression 1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other. 2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other. Article II - Sharing of Luxuries 1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power. 3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to. Article III - Partnership in Technological Research 1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation. 3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 4. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sell a technology to a foreign power. Article IV - Wonders of the World 1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct. 2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not. Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance 1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner. 2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory. 5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans. 6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall. Article VI - Exchange of Territory 1. Parts of Spain, as jointly decided by the partners, shall be transferred from Spain to the Gathering Storm during the war to aid in the defense of allied lands on the continent of Bob. At the war's end, all such lands ceded to the Gathering Storm shall be returned to Spain with the exception of the port city of Bilbao. 2. Spain shall keep, as its official possessions, all lands historically within the boudaries of Spain and all lands to the south of current Spanish territory upon the continent of Bob with the exception of Bilbao and another Gathering Storm port to the northeast of Madrid. 3. When the lands south of the central Bobian mountains in Neu Demogyptica are conquered by the alliance, the cities of Marlowa, Arneblanca, Neu Theben, Trippolis, Mavdad, their environs and lands south of them will be granted to Spain. 4. All land on the continent of Bob not reserved to Spain in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be given to the Gathering Storm upon its conquest by the alliance. 5. Neither partner shall ever accept the cultural conversion of a city belonging to the other partner. Should any cultural conversion of a city take place from one partner to the other anyhow, the city in question shall be immediately returned to its original owner. 6. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners. ARTICLE VII - Additional Agreements 1. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a non-aggression agreement with a foreign power. 2. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a mutual-protection agreement with a foreign power. 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by the partnership with foreign powers. ARTICLE VIII - Ratification 1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the treaty back to be ratified by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm. 2. Upon ratification by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this treaty will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms. ARTICLE IX - Ammendments 1. This treaty may be ammended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an ammended version of the treaty and such an ammended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article VIII. SIGNATURES ___________________ Francisco Clemente, Representative of Spain ___________________ Notyoueither, Representative of the Gathering Storm

After NYE and I have finished hashing out the last details (if anything needs to be hashed out), this will be submitted for a vote on both sides (and the King as well on our side).

	20-07-2003 17:56									#8
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Shoot! I forgot the clause in Article I about "attacking" for the purpose of us getting those catapults... grr... I knew I was forgetting something.

I'll add that and send it ammended to NYE again

	20-07-2003 18:02									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, corrected version of this treaty sent (slight change to Article I to allow us to exchange artillery units through an "attack").

I hope that does it.

	20-07-2003 18:33									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm not all too happy with article VI clause 4.
What if it turns out that our armies are more effective than GS'? And we conquer city after city to the north and then... just stop, cause we're not allowed to keep them. I think that would give GS too much.
Also I'm not happy that they ALWAYS get the final say.
I think for the sake of balance that we should have at least ONE article where we decide.

Disregard that and I think this must be one of the best works of diplomacy I've seen in years (I just hope it doesnt end up like the München-treaty...)

	20-07-2003 20:04									#11
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I'll sign it, Lord Clemente.

Pope Calixtus I

	20-07-2003 21:30									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Well, it's our only chance, but it's a damn good one

	20-07-2003 21:31									#13
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I'm behind this, 100%.

Eta Tamali Family

	20-07-2003 23:13									#14
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When the treaty comes to us, I would like to have the Pope, the Lord Chamberlain, myself, and our special Ambassador to GS Arnelos all sign it.

--Togas

	21-07-2003 04:15									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Final Revision of the Treaty

notyoueither> hi
Arnelos> hello
Arnelos> I have the nagging suspicion that there's another edit I forgot
notyoueither> hehe
notyoueither> the subject to clause, and the secrecy clause
Arnelos> ah hah
Arnelos> secrecy
notyoueither> Article VII
Arnelos> "the subject to clause"
notyoueither> 4. With the exception of Article I, this treaty is subject to restrictions which Gathering Storm may be under due to agreements with foreign powers. If Gathering Storm is unable to fulfill a clause of this treaty, because doing so would cause a violation of an agreement with a foreign power, then Gathering Storm will not be considered to have violated this treaty.
notyoueither> 5. The existence of this treaty, and the terms of it, are to be kept secret from all civs and individuals who are not members or citizens of Gathering Storm or Spain. Gathering Storm may grant permission to disclose the existence of this treaty or specific details of it when Gathering Storm feels it would be beneficial to do so, at which time specified details may be disclosed, but the remainder will remain secret.
Arnelos> ok
Arnelos> both in Article VII?
notyoueither> do those look ok?
Arnelos> they'll work
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> how soon can Togas or you sign off?
Arnelos> Togas is offline at the moment
notyoueither> we could consider if ratified by GS now, with those two clauses
Arnelos> pinged out... so he's probably have more connection problems
notyoueither> oh. ok
Arnelos> ok, when he gets back on, I'll check with him and we'll post it for ratification on our end if we're cool with it
notyoueither> ok. how long to ratify?
Arnelos> 1-2 days for the vote
notyoueither> damn
Arnelos> you guys may not even have the save by then
notyoueither> it puts us in a vry awkward spot
notyoueither> we have it now
Arnelos> oh
notyoueither> if we accept those cities, we put ourselves in it
notyoueither> if you fail to ratify...
Arnelos> I'm pretty the chances of that are nil
Arnelos> btw...
Arnelos> wait - nevermind
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> we would feel much better if it were signed
Arnelos> Well, Togas and I can sign it for sure
Arnelos> but it needs to be ratified
notyoueither> well, we can sit on the save for 24 hours
Arnelos> btw... for that clause 4... I'm trying to figure exactly what that means for various agreements
Arnelos> for instance... Article V (MPP)
Arnelos> this line is already there:
Arnelos> 2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.
Arnelos> I assume this already gave GS insurrance on being dragged in
notyoueither> true. but the future holds many possibilities
notyoueither> we would like it specified that if we are bound, we are not in breech of this
Arnelos> I'm just concerned that some people might take exception to that clause 4 as an opt-out clause
Arnelos> in other words, allowing GS to sign agreements with other powers with the specific intent of freeing themselves from obligations in this treaty
notyoueither> i understand, but we have no way of knowing what will crop up later
notyoueither> beleive that it would be in our interests to see a healthy and happy rp
Arnelos> true, it would
notyoueither> ahh. gs would not do that
Arnelos> not saying it's a RATIONAL fear, mind you... but there are people on both of our teams who have a penchant for irrational fears
notyoueither> Arnelos> in other words, allowing GS to sign agreements with other powers with the specific intent of freeing themselves from obligations in this treaty
notyoueither> we would not do that
Arnelos> ok, I'll have to take your word for it
notyoueither> it might come into play with NT clauses on techs.
Arnelos> true
notyoueither> or with lux and resources
Arnelos> that's the one major concern, I agree
Arnelos> hmm... I have an idea
notyoueither> k
Arnelos> since GS already gets a veto over Spain's treaty agreements with foreign powers, would it not make sense to re-word this clause 4 to cover agreements with foreign powers by both nations?
Arnelos> for instance, if Spain were to obtain a tech at discount from Lego (as they are obligated), but it had a 10-turn NT clause?
notyoueither> we would agree to that when we agreed to the trade between you and lego
Arnelos> while true, the treaty states we're obligated to immediately provide it to you unless a joint decision is made not to. So unless both sides agree not to, Spain would be obligated to break one agreement in order to fulfill another.
notyoueither> the bottom line is, that we cannot anticipate all the things that other powers may dream up for future agreements
notyoueither> we would agree to the nt with us or we would veto it.
notyoueither> article 1 is not subject to anything
Arnelos> my thought is that if GS has veto power over all foreign agreements by Spain, adding Spain to the clause 4 you've written only creates insurrance against Spain violating one agreement to fulfill another, GS still has veto power
notyoueither> there would be no GoW squirming to betray an MPP partner
notyoueither> what about existing agreements?
Arnelos> that's the problem, isn't it?
notyoueither> yes
Arnelos> what existing agreements are there?
Arnelos> We ATTEMPTED to obtain NAPs from several powers, but were turned down... so that's not a problem
notyoueither> what we want to do is cover it so that should an unforseen situation come up, where we are bound by another for a trade or some such, and we are bound to you
notyoueither> we are not breaking either
Arnelos> the only agreements currently active are an MPP with GoW which runs out this turn (which they already broke and it's basically gone), and our original agreement with Lego whereby they owe us a lot as payment for favors we did for them long ago
notyoueither> it is very important to us to never break an agreement
notyoueither> well, we could get into a lot of extra language, and further delay, but...
Arnelos> I suppose all I'm asking is that if Spain is to become a partner, that we be given the same leeway to not be breaking agreements. Afterall, if Spain's foreign policy is essentially being lead by GS, if Spain violates one treaty to fulfill another, GS is responsible for this violation.
Arnelos> as GS has veto power over all Spanish treaties
notyoueither> i see your point. i fear some in gs may have a problem with it
notyoueither> we could amend later
notyoueither> once we have a chance to do a good job of it, and we have time to make peopls in gs feel more secrue
notyoueither> right now, we are under some time contstraints
Arnelos> the main concern is NT clauses the RP may have to agree to if you guys see we can get a tech for cheaper than you from the same source (because they don't like GS). Will we then be required to break our NT agreement with that source to immediately give it to you or would we wait in order to uphold the NT clause?
Arnelos> yes, I understand the time issue
notyoueither> no. when we agree to the trade, we would be agreeing to the nt
Arnelos> hmm...
notyoueither> we would not require you to break an agreement with another like that
Arnelos> perhaps, since GS has veto over all Spanish treaties, it would be easier to say that GS is bound to honor treaties that it approves Spain to sign
notyoueither> that has possibilities
notyoueither> can you write it up quickly. sounds simple enough
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> paste it into here
Arnelos> just added a sentence fragment to GS veto clause
Arnelos> here:
Arnelos> 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and is thus carries an obligation to honor agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
Arnelos> oops
Arnelos> grammar
Arnelos> the "is" before "thus" is removed
Arnelos> 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
Arnelos> is that all?
notyoueither> ok
Arnelos> alright then
notyoueither> i will post that. I think it will find rapid agreement
Arnelos> I'll post on our end
Arnelos> I have to double-check the Magna Carta-like document we wrote when we switched to Republic... don't even remember what the exact procedure on treaties is in terms of where it has to go through... pretty sure we just have to vote on it and the king has to sign it.
notyoueither> Arnelos, one additional word
Arnelos> shoot
notyoueither> Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor future agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
notyoueither> addition of the word future
Arnelos> got it
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> cool
Arnelos> done
Arnelos> that's sensible
notyoueither> i should send it ratified to you very soon
Arnelos> ok
notyoueither> within an hour or two
Arnelos> great
Arnelos> how does that work on your end?
notyoueither> please get the ratification going.
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> we ahev already agreed among ourselves
Arnelos> ah
notyoueither> i am here to get it done
notyoueither> consensus
notyoueither> damn. we even polled on this one

	21-07-2003 04:17									#16
	Tired of ads?

Treaty as revised:

quote: Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain Purpose The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain. Article I - Non-Aggression 1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units. 2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units. Article II - Sharing of Luxuries 1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power. 3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to. Article III - Partnership in Technological Research 1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated. 2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation. 3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 4. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sell a technology to a foreign power. Article IV - Wonders of the World 1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct. 2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not. Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance 1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner. 2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm. 4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory. 5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans. 6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall. Article VI - Exchange of Territory 1. Parts of Spain, as jointly decided by the partners, shall be transferred from Spain to the Gathering Storm during the war to aid in the defense of allied lands on the continent of Bob. At the war's end, all such lands ceded to the Gathering Storm shall be returned to Spain with the exception of the port city of Bilbao. 2. Spain shall keep, as its official possessions, all lands historically within the boudaries of Spain and all lands to the south of current Spanish territory upon the continent of Bob with the exception of Bilbao and another Gathering Storm port to the northeast of Madrid. 3. When the lands south of the central Bobian mountains in Neu Demogyptica are conquered by the alliance, the cities of Marlowa, Arneblanca, Neu Theben, Trippolis, Mavdad, their environs and lands south of them will be granted to Spain. 4. All land on the continent of Bob not reserved to Spain in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be given to the Gathering Storm upon its conquest by the alliance. 5. Neither partner shall ever accept the cultural conversion of a city belonging to the other partner. Should any cultural conversion of a city take place from one partner to the other anyhow, the city in question shall be immediately returned to its original owner. 6. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners. ARTICLE VII - Additional Agreements 1. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a non-aggression agreement with a foreign power. 2. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a mutual-protection agreement with a foreign power. 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor future agreements made by Spain with foreign powers. 4. With the exception of Article I, this treaty is subject to restrictions which Gathering Storm may be under due to agreements with foreign powers. If Gathering Storm is unable to fulfill a clause of this treaty, because doing so would cause a violation of an agreement with a foreign power, then Gathering Storm will not be considered to have violated this treaty. 5. The existence of this treaty, and the terms of it, are to be kept secret from all civs and individuals who are not members or citizens of Gathering Storm or Spain. Gathering Storm may grant permission to disclose the existence of this treaty or specific details of it when Gathering Storm feels it would be beneficial to do so, at which time specified details may be disclosed, but the remainder will remain secret. ARTICLE VIII - Ratification 1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the treaty back to be ratified by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm. 2. Upon ratification by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this treaty will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms. ARTICLE IX - Ammendments 1. This treaty may be ammended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an ammended version of the treaty and such an ammended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article VIII.

	21-07-2003 04:19									#17
	Tired of ads?

Now posting for a vote of the House of Lords. If and when the Lords pass it, King Togas can sign it (along with the Pope, should he wish to) and we can inform Gathering Storm that the treaty has been ratified.

GS has asked that we make this process as quick as possible so people don't start becoming suspicious that GS is holding onto the save for us...