20-07-2003 11:14									#31
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I hope the much better Bradleys are used instead...

	20-07-2003 11:14									#32
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OK, so we're supposed to go kick some LURD ass? This whole story of what American troops would do there doesn't seem to be very well developed.

Btw, I wouldn't mind us kicking some LURD ass. They have a core of jihadists, IIRC. Not your pan-muslim jihadists like the al Qaeda dead-enders, but still...

	20-07-2003 11:16									#33
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The LURD needs to be shown a lesson on warfare and Taylor needs to leave too.

	20-07-2003 11:31									#34
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What are you people talking about?

The US will not send any forces to do anyting but peacekeep..that means, AFTER some sort of semblance has been reached: that means either both sides agree to a ceasefire, or one side beats the other and then asks.

If any outsiders are going to come in an shot at anyone, it would most likely be West African forces, as they did in Sierra Leone. As it was, Bush was talking about sending a small contingent of US forces that would aid a much larger African force of peacekeepers.

	20-07-2003 11:34									#35
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Well the Nigerians are famous for coming in and starting shooting wars with the rebels... they have a large and relatively modern (on comparsion to region) miltiary.

	20-07-2003 13:08									#36
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quote: OK, so we're supposed to go kick some LURD ass? This whole story of what American troops would do there doesn't seem to be very well developed.

You would be going to peacekeep.

Ideally, a joint West African-American force would have been in place already, perhaps even preventing the latest outbreak of violence, and facilitating Taylor's speedy exit from the country.

Now that the war is seemingly back on again, no peacekeeping force will be sent... until the fighting stops. Simple as that. Unless you guys want to get into peaceMAKING, which I do not reccomend.

So, basically, now we just have to wait and see when everything quiets down, and then either send in a peacekeeping force to aid in the transition of government, or just re-analyze the situation.

	20-07-2003 13:10									#37
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Pewacemaking should be contained to situations where catstraophe is imminent (i.e. Rwanda)

	20-07-2003 13:14									#38
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Maybe it's the concept of peacekeeping that doesn't make any sense to me. If the peace is already there, why would US troops be needed in the situation at all? Would US troops just be there to extend the power of various factions to what it would normally be unable to do?

If you want to make peace, I can see some concrete steps for US troops being set out.

	20-07-2003 13:17									#39
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B3cause peace is a fragile thing. Especially in civile war.

UN trioops go in the centre to stop people from treading on each other's toes. I t presupposes good will on the part of major players, and is utile when trust is lacking betwnnn sides. Blue helmets keep the UN boys safe because the fighters don't want to look bad.

That's the ideal, at least. Sometimes the *******s get in the way.

	21-07-2003 03:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It'll teach them that roadbound and hard, smooth off-road surface limited forces are a lot easier to channelize into effective killing zones than tracked forces. Stryker sucks ass.

(I was being Ironic. I;m even more Ironic in Pekka's "Susie Q" thread)

	21-07-2003 03:47									#41
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If you want us to invade, pacify the country and take care of anyone who tries to stop that, let us know. Otherwise, there isn't much we can do. This is not a place for bleu hats to prevent border skirmishes.

	21-07-2003 04:38									#42
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If the country were stabilised, and substantial commitments made to improving the country, Monrovia could be made into a West African Hong Kong. Would be a good base for the greater development of Africa.

So I support the sending in of troops, be it US or otherwise.

	21-07-2003 04:45									#43
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You said before that the justification for sending in the troops was that the sides would accept the forces. Now we have a side that refuses to do so. Are you calling for us to fight them?

	21-07-2003 04:46									#44
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Or..are you just a moron?

	21-07-2003 04:56									#45
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I didn't say anything before, and half of this thread has been about the Stryker.

	21-07-2003 05:13									#46
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Oh it must have been some other moron in the previous threads on Liberia.

	21-07-2003 10:08									#47
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Monrovia an African Hong Kong?

	22-07-2003 03:07									#48
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Does anyone have a subscription to the Financial Times? The have a story titled "UN calls on US to help Liberia" that I'd like to look at.

quote: Marines Set to Defend Embassy in Liberia Monday July 21, 2003 9:49 PM By BARRY SCHWEID AP Diplomatic Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. Embassy complex in Liberia's capital came under fire Monday, and the State Department urged rebels to hold off if they expected to be part of a future government. A State Department spokesman, Philip T. Reeker, criticized the rebel group Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy for ``reckless and indiscriminate shooting'' and appealed to neighboring African countries to guard against weaponry going to Liberia. President Bush said he had sent more Marines in to protect the U.S. Embassy, and 4,500 more American sailors and Marines were ordered into positions closer to the west African country. ``We recognize the dangers there,'' Reeker said when asked if the embassy would remain open. A mortar round hit an apartment building on the main embassy grounds and another hit a house on the embassy's annex compound, An unidentified U.S. citizen was wounded as he ran to take cover in the embassy. Liberians were reported killed after a shell hit an American compound where they had taken refuge across the street. Secretary of State Colin Powell conferred by telephone for a fourth consecutive day with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, while Bush continued to withhold a decision on sending American peacekeepers. Bush, at his ranch in Texas, told reporters that West African leaders had not determined when they would be ready to send in their own peacekeepers - forces the president said ``we'd be willing to help move in to Liberia.'' Amid the growing crisis, Bush said ``we're monitoring the situation very carefully.'' Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld signed a deployment order over the weekend ordering a three-ship amphibious ready group from its position off the Horn of Africa into the Mediterranean Sea, defense officials said Monday. That would put the group in a position to get to the west coast of Africa faster, if needed for an evacuation of Americans, for peacekeeping or for some other mission. Angry Liberians lined up at least 18 bodies outside the U.S. Embassy compound, after a shell hit an American diplomatic compound across the street, where at least 10,000 refugees had taken refuge. Spokesman Reeker lectured the rebels that ``they need to think about the plight of the civilian population, the humanitarian workers who are there to alleviate suffering.'' Shifting the target of U.S. rhetoric from President Charles Taylor to the rebels, Reeker said, ``If we're to trust them in the future to participate in the democratic governance of Liberia, we need to be able to see them keep their commitments now.'' So, Reeker said, ``we're calling upon the leader of the LURD group to immediately halt that offensive, and for all Liberians to re-energize their efforts in achieving a peaceful, negotiated settlement'' through talks held in Ghana. Meanwhile, Taylor, who could face war crimes prosecution, remained in Liberia despite a pledge to leave. With the weekend deployment order, it would take the amphibious group several days to get into the Mediterranean, where it would await further orders, Pentagon officials said. From there, it would take seven to 10 days to get to Liberia, if ordered to do so, officials said. There are 2,000 Marines and 2,500 sailors in the group, led by the USS Iwo Jima, which has been in the Horn of Africa region as part of the global war on terrorism. It would typically be only the Marines who would go ashore.

	22-07-2003 03:22									#49
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What they need is Susie Q's now. Jungle modified!
Interested military personel in charge of invests can PM me. I figure after developing, it'll cost about $20 million to get 100 of them. And then it's show time!

	22-07-2003 04:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The LURD needs to be shown a lesson on warfare and Taylor needs to leave too.

I hope you don't take offense, but before you start talking about who's ass we need to kick maybe you should put a uniform on and see what it's like. Then after you have done your tour, maybe your opinion about lessons of warfare might mean something.

Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

	22-07-2003 05:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I hope you don't take offense, but before you start talking about who's ass we need to kick maybe you should put a uniform on and see what it's like. Then after you have done your tour, maybe your opinion about lessons of warfare might mean something. Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Well said.

However, as *I*'ve put on a uniform, I think a small stabiliszation would be ideal. If for no other reason than (1) Increasing influence in Africa and (2) Trying to patch up our foreign relations.

	22-07-2003 05:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I hope you don't take offense, but before you start talking about who's ass we need to kick maybe you should put a uniform on and see what it's like. Then after you have done your tour, maybe your opinion about lessons of warfare might mean something. Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Umm, it is perhaps that I want to do something different. The US military is voluntary. They signed up for doing dangerous work. I prefer not to do.

I have been studying military strategy for many years now and have an extensive collection of books. Sure I don't have combat experience... lol... I just got out of high school in June.. and I got university to worry about!

I want to get through university. I will probably end up serving the US government either way as I show interest in the DOD.

	22-07-2003 05:50									#53
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Here's the latest from FT. I continue to be amaze that when you remain open to putting troops in, all of the sudden you are blamed for not being there already, and pressured as though it were your responsibility all along.

Oh well, I guess everybody just feels frustrated.

quote: US urged to act as war in Liberia intensifies By Michael Peel in Lagos, Mark Turner at the UN and Guy Dinmore in Washington Published: July 21 2003 20:51 | Last Updated: July 21 2003 22:42 Dozens of people were thought dead in Liberia on Monday night after further fighting in the country's civil war sparked appeals from the United Nations for the US to help restore deteriorating security in Monrovia, the capital. The US embassy compound was hit by mortar fire as marines flew in by helicopter to defend it and the Pentagon confirmed it was sending 4,500 troops to the Mediterranean as part of "prudent planning" for a possible intervention. Dominique Liengme, head of the delegation of the International Committee of the Red Cross, said wounded people had been arriving "non-stop" at Monrovia's main hospital. "In the last three days, the situation has really deteriorated," she said. "It's essential that there is a ceasefire and that the combat stops so we can assess humanitarian needs." Chiefs of defence staff from Ecowas, the 15-member union of west African states, were meeting on Monday to discuss a deployment of a 1,500-member peacekeeping force made up of a battalion of Nigerian soldiers and smaller contingents from other nations. US President George W. Bush said his administration was monitoring the situation very carefully and working with Ecowas on plans for a peacekeeping force and with the UN. A truce agreed between the warring parties last month has twice collapsed amid heavy fighting around Monrovia. "The trouble is that everybody is waiting for everybody else," said one western diplomat. Kofi Annan, UN secretary-general, urged Ecowas and the US to stop prevaricating, warning that Liberia was "poised between hope and disaster". UN sources said Mr Annan wrote to Colin Powell, US secretary of state, on Saturday, and had been in telephone contact over the weekend. Hospital workers and emergency services reported at least 60 deaths in the town as loyalist troops continued to fight the Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy rebel group. The US has faced calls from ordinary Monrovians, the warring parties and western allies such as Britain to send a force to help stabilise Liberia, founded in 1847 by freed American slaves. However, a US poll by Zogby International shows that 53 per cent of African-Americans are against US military intervention in Liberia, while 41 per cent of Americans as a whole are opposed. A further complication is uncertainty over the intentions of Charles Taylor, Liberia's president, who has agreed to step down. Vaanii Paasewe, his press secretary, said the president was under "immense pressure" from his supporters to reconsider his decision to leave the country and take refuge in Nigeria.

	22-07-2003 05:54									#54
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I honestly don't know if US troops are a good idea in this situation, or ig nature should be allowed to take its course (or, as seems to be the US' position it should act as a facilitator for an African peacekeeping force)

	22-07-2003 06:29									#55
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In the latest mortar attack by the rebels some 90 civilians were killed.

	22-07-2003 06:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Umm, it is perhaps that I want to do something different. The US military is voluntary. They signed up for doing dangerous work. I prefer not to do. I have been studying military strategy for many years now and have an extensive collection of books. Sure I don't have combat experience... lol... I just got out of high school in June.. and I got university to worry about! I want to get through university. I will probably end up serving the US government either way as I show interest in the DOD.

The contract I signed mentioned defending the Constitution of the United States. I don't remember there being a part about stabelizing third world countries. Iraq was a streach for me as a national security issue but Liberia on the other hand is of no consequence to American security. Tragedy for sure but nothing to do with American national security. I volunteered to defend the US. Not Liberia.

Some of you think that we have unlimited resources and can go anywhere in the world. Truth is there are limits on what we can do. With trouble on the Korean Penn, troops being shot in Baghdad while walking through the streets, and troops in Afghanstan trying to hunt down still viable threats, I can't imagine why anyone would want to take on more responsiblity especially when its not vital to our interests. On top of all that a new round of base closings are in the near future.
This is not a board game where the pieces are plastic and you can move them around without thinking of costs.

	22-07-2003 06:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar However, as *I*'ve put on a uniform, I think a small stabiliszation would be ideal. If for no other reason than (1) Increasing influence in Africa and (2) Trying to patch up our foreign relations.

1. In order to maintain what little influience we may gain, we will have to keep involving ourselves in Africa every time something like this happens. How many countries shall we insert ourselves in. Is the Congo next? How about going back into Somalia? How about Angolo the next time they start killing each other?

2. Countries will think of us what they will. When we are needed we will be allies. When we are not, we will be the same ole big imperialist bullies. World opinion is fickle. It changes with the political wind.

	22-07-2003 06:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Umm, it is perhaps that I want to do something different. The US military is voluntary. They signed up for doing dangerous work. I prefer not to do. I have been studying military strategy for many years now and have an extensive collection of books. Sure I don't have combat experience... lol... I just got out of high school in June.. and I got university to worry about! I want to get through university. I will probably end up serving the US government either way as I show interest in the DOD.

We don't need another toy soldier at DOD. Perhaps Argentina needs you or perhaps Spain, but the U.S. doesn't.

	22-07-2003 08:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander We don't need another toy soldier at DOD. Perhaps Argentina needs you or perhaps Spain, but the U.S. doesn't.

You idiot, I will work where-ever the **** I feel.

	22-07-2003 08:08									#60
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Liberia has been screwed since it founding and having us send troops there to be targets of pissed off locals won't change that fact. It will just turn into another nonfunctioning and expensive charity case instead of the non-functioning but cheap charity case it is right now.