22-07-2003 01:37									#1
	Looking Ahead: Target GCA Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, we haven't even killed CDG yet, yes it's a long ways off, yadda yadda. But we will eventually have to fight GCA. Preparation goes a long way. CDG isn't much to look at anyways.

In the chatroom I was discussing methods we could use to hit GCA. Right now they have an army which is near our size and an industrial base equivalent to our own. However, the longer GCA fights the more we will gain on them. They can build cities here and there, but certainly not at the rate that we can build up. We will also be preparing our cities to get MUCH stronger, which means while we're equal now, we'll be able to outpace them eventually, especially with Republic and our GA.

However, that alone doesn't mean you win. CDG and CFC had a combined industrial strength greater than GCA, but GCA has routed CDG and is STILL on the offensive against CFC.

GCA seems to have a lot of luck with its armies, and also has done very well with improving/using their cities. While we can certainly march south with a huge SoD, that doesn't mean we'll win automatically. If they get lucky again, then we're in trouble either way.

GCA has developed an efficient arms industry, and despite fighting two opponents has remained on par with our own army. Thus we can assume with enough time they will be able to rebuild a large portion of their army, even if they lost most of it when we attack. The goal, therefore, is to eliminate this capacity. How do we do that? By taking important GCA cities.

But GCA's important cities are all in the south, while we'll be facing Elucidium, Goatcity and the desert/plains cities of the north LONG before we'll approach GCA's true industrial core. As long as GCA can field units they can get lucky, and they can win. But there's a way to take care of this problem: by taking their important cities via the water.

With only 5 Galleys we can have any mix of 10 units at our disposal. As long as GCA does not build any more cities on its west coast (where all the plains are), then we can approach all the way south to the water tiles adjacent to Balance of Power unnoticed with as many Galleys as we can field. Not only is Balance of Power both a land and naval chokepoint, but it's one of GCA's major cities. What are the odds of GCA having units in range to repel our landing of 10 units adjacent to BoP? With the city captured GCA loses a major city, the chokepoint, and its army to the west is isolated (should they STILL be fighting CFC).

Once BoP is under our control, our 5 Galley force can swing around to any side of GCA, landing and capturing/razing cities as necessary. GCA will NOT be able to let this threat go unanswered, and will have to shift a large number of forces south to deal with it. Otherwise, they stand to lose a very large portion of their industry. Thus, we can either hit their industry hard, or split their army. Considering that we will have a much higher industry, and, hopefully a much larger army, this will give us local superiority in the north. We can march south with the remainder of our forces against a dwindling GCA army to victory.

To all you nay-sayers: yes, it involves splitting our army. 10 units on 5 Galleys is a big investment, but if we can capture BoP alone that's a major GCA city and they will either have to send units to stop our landing from moving on, or they will try to recapture the city. Otherwise we can use this force to march or sail all over the place, wreaking major havoc to GCA's industrial center.

Why not just march south with a 40 unit Stack of Doom? Look at the distance involved. That's a long, long march over enemy territory where he can hit us whenever he pleases. All they need is one lucky victory and our offensive is derailed. It will be at least 10 very fast and lucky turns before we can even get to GCA's first major city, and with 5-7 large cities pumping out only units for 10 turns, that's a potential ten to FIFTEEN units in just that amount of time. The sooner we hit their city core the better. We need to deal with their impressive production capability as fast as we can.

Discuss.

	22-07-2003 01:46									#2
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Actually, I can see GCA getting angered at the apolyton empire for "sniping their kill" or even worse... worrying at the vast power that Apolyton seems to have- and, in a preemptive strike- they might go after one of the more vulnerable citadels.

Just a warning

So, as trip has planned, it probably is best to have a contingency plan and plan for a preemptive strike. If we could find 2 of their industrial capitals and hit them fast, perhaps while we are still both wiping up CDG, then we can shock GCA into perhaps a temporary peace??? or at least cripple their arms capacity while we build up.

Then we could send an ambassador to CFC and get them on our side and do away with GCA.

In summnation

GCA vs. CFC/CDG
Apolyton vs. CDG

then

Apolyton vs. GCA
Apolyton vs. CDG (weakened)

then

Apolyton vs. GCA

then

Apolyton/CFC vs. GCA

It's a win-win situation!

	22-07-2003 07:42									#3
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This is weird, from the forum it's not recorded that you have replied in this thread...

Are you saying that GCA would attack us before CDG is finished?

Right now CDG has two size 2 cities and two size 1 cities, most likely most of their army in Elucidium to face GCA, and not a prayer of a chance to defeat us now. We can have them down to the chokepoint city in 2 turns if we want.

As for GCA, I don't see them attacking us while already at war witih two other civs. They're busy securing the mountains east of CFC, which is bound to be costly on both sides. By the time we're ready they should be sufficiently weakened. Despite having an army nearly as large as our own, they will only have HALF of it on this front. Launching an attack with those odds is suicidal at best.

Or maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

	22-07-2003 08:23									#4
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I don't think we should underestimate GCA. They aren't likely to ignore the threat we pose to them from this point on (we are effectively on their radar as the new embassy shows). I don't think they will be attacking us either (least not until they feel they have an advantage), but I also doubt they'll send half their army into CFC land and trust us not to march south.

The real question though is will they have a choice?

CFC isn't likely to let the war end on GCA's terms (border at the mountains). GCA isn't likely to back down because they fear CFC with that much land. I half suspect this will degenerate into GCA putting a sizable force in Balance of power and "raiding" periodically to keep CFC under control while at the same time fortifying their border with us.

Both sides are likely to be looking for what our next move will be post-CDG elimination though and doing their best to win our aid to tilt the balance of power in their favor.

I haven't been good at predictions this whole game though, so I could be wrong :P Thats just what I would do if I was in their shoes.....

	22-07-2003 08:26									#5
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Once the Galleys are in place we can investigate BoP the turn before we attack/land. If its highly populated with units, then we can choose another target. If not, we hit it.

	23-07-2003 05:28									#6
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I am, preliminarily, in favor of Trip's thinking.

* Move fast
* Misdirect
* Strike where unexpected
* Recon recon recon
* Keep the enemy off-balance

When the time comes, this would best be coordinated with CFC.

	23-07-2003 05:34									#7
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Now that we've got all this land (due to CDG's concession), should we simply revert to Builder mode and let CFC and GCA fight it out? Looks to me like they will be pretty evenly matched, with CFC's mountain range and GCA's chokepoint. We still have a lot of Jungle to clear, and the land underneath will prove mighty productive.

Proposal:

1. Lay low diplomatically.
2. Stop preparing for war, but maintain an strong standing army.
3. Focus on economy.
4. Switch to Republic.
5. The sky is the limit.


Dominae

	23-07-2003 05:56									#8
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Possible... if we can project further building a 'production power' advantage.

While I prefer Swords v. Spears, I'm OK with MedInf v. Pikes too (although I'd be worried about Knight-level units).

	23-07-2003 06:28									#9
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We must get to GCA before the get to War Elephants, and hence their GA.

Will continue on our path to prepare for war, only it will be for GCA instead of CDG. The name of this game is war. We need some more land befoe GCa gets too strong. Elucidium should serve them well and we should not allow it for too long. The only way to get GL's is through war. We need armies in the future, so we need GL's. If we coordinate with CFC wil can easily dismantle GCA.

The question is how do we spit the continent with CFC? East/West or North/South? I'd prefer an East/West Split. We get BoP and CFC gets the Northern Chokepoint.

	23-07-2003 06:54									#10
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Hmmm... good question.

I'm of a mind that CFC gets Cha Ching22221, and we get the rest.

	23-07-2003 08:11									#11
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Another reason for preparing to carry out the AltSp against GCA now is that our agreement with CDG was that we would kill GCA at our discretion.

So although we have gained some time (I hope), we should still go for Republic, then mass-build Swords and mass-upgrade Warriors and charge GCA for sure. Hopefully before they get Chivalry too, as we should have our GA versus them in normal mode to give us that extra chance.

I am concerned about a war with GCA before we have Republic as this is the absolute key point of the AltSp - triggering a GA in Republic to push ourselves ahead.

	24-07-2003 07:40									#12
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How many units of each type are planning on having in the SoD and galley runs?

	25-07-2003 05:21									#13
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Trip, what I was proposing was that Gamecatcher, from what I know of the posters (Which isn't much) (but admittedly,) they will be more agressive than you might think. Frankly, I think they will start blockading in our troops, trying to keep us from moving forward- trying to limit our movement and isolate us (if it is possible)

They will probably see our growing power and start founding cities, etc. (especially since they need to fund their growing war machine)

thus, I can see them starting a war with apolyton fairly soon.

Thus, I suggested the above attack plan. Apolyton should strike first, allying with CFC and plotting a course of war, sweeping down on Gamecatcher's northern side while CFC takes on the rest of the empire.

Then apolyton could secure some large citadels and a larger expanse of land and be able to deal with the CFC menace some time in the future.

as it is- Apolyton almost needs to go to war... If apolyton can emerge victorious, then we will be in a much stronger position than before; both diplomatically and militaristically.

	25-07-2003 06:09									#14
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We know from their dealings with CFC that GCA can be very aggressive when they see they have the upperhand against a future threat.

We shouldn't be surprised if they treat us the same way....but they probally would rather deal with CFC first.

DarkCloud is definately right to be concerned though.

	25-07-2003 06:13									#15
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GCA is good with threat assessment. Lately Lucky has been talking with us over and again about how big our power and military are. He obviously recognizes how strong we are, and they don't appear to be too anxious to fight us. Even if they do attack us, we have a 10 Sword army ready to march south with 2 Horsemen ready in just a couple more turns.

	27-07-2003 03:58									#16
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He keeps talking about how big our army is? Is he trying to get arms reduction :rofl:??

Hmm...

Do you think that they might be feeling threatened by apolyton's military prowess and be trying to ramp up their own military funding?

That is something to be worried about. if they see us as a threat, they might act irrationally.

	27-07-2003 04:15									#17
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I am very concerned, DarkCloud. They are not seriously menacing CFC. They have their victorious army near us already. That army was reported to be only 6 units though.

However, they just climbed up to avg vs us. That puts them at the low end of the range. They may well be weak again after the horse completes in 650BC in Mingapulco.

But... they have 4 cities that could be churning units, so they can close the gap for a bit. Soon, Poly comes on line, then we are in republic, then Nana comes on line.

If they come, I think they will build up a bit first. That suits us fine as we have the larger army right now, they do have some units in view of CFC so they are not concentrated, and we are about to sprint ahead while in Republic. Meanwhile they are technological pygmies; they are short 5 techs as of now, and it does not look as if they have Polytheism as previously reported.

If they come now, it is not all bad. We would have 10 sword and 2 horse to fend them off with, and they would be advancing on us, not the other way around. We could leave the mercs out of it unless and until they get close to something important.