22-07-2003 04:13									#1
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Firstly.. WHY???

Secondly... Why not ordinary civilian courts? Isn't there double standards when the only American citizen there is tried under civilian juries etc? Also the two British guys up for trial there look like they have some hope, though the Americans don't want the same legal opportunities given to the rest of the prisoners. Why not?

Thirdly, and this takes the form of a question as much as anything else. I would like to know what people think about the presumption of innocence before guilt. I agree with it very strongly of course, but hearing other arguments is interesting.

Fourthly and on a slightly different note, Bush said that "these are bad people", referring to the two British men up for trial, and presumably the rest of the inmates. This of course either demonstrates that they are pretty much condemned, or that Bush is irrationally jumping to conclusions, or that he is operating on fallacious, absolutist principles of good and bad, without evidence to make those assumptions, pretty much except that these men were at the wrong place at the wrong time, thus got arrested in Afghanistan.

Fifthly, to those that support Guantanamo, why? Isn't fair trials, innocence before guilt, and adherence to the spirit and letter of international conventions that the US signs up to, enshrined in your constitution? IMO, being patriotic at best is being loyal to that constitution, not to Bush or irrational sentiment based as much on revenge as anything else. Perhaps some of the arguments for Camp X-ray or whatever its called would be interested, because I may be missing something...

	22-07-2003 04:18									#2
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Lets talk about San Francisco Bay or even Galveston Bay.

	22-07-2003 04:18									#3
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quote: Firstly.. WHY??? Secondly... Why not ordinary civilian courts?

Because they don't want to release information that, though it is essential to the trial, is also classified intelligence information. Releasing it could cause irreperable harm to US interests.

	22-07-2003 04:19									#4
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yep, I'd be interested to hear a defence of locking up people for 18 months (or whatever) on no charge and then convicting them on the say-so of the very people who locked them up in the first place!

	22-07-2003 04:22									#5
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quote: Releasing it could cause irreperable harm to US interests.

IMO to most rational people, that is precluded by fair justice, and does not justify the barbaric treatment of prisoners there, nor the legal limbo they are in. Justice, and fair, open justice is essential to the integrity of a fair democracy, that, constitutionally, America should be proud of. Indeed, my position seems to be backed up by those who included that clause in your constitution in the first place!!

	22-07-2003 04:24									#6
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quote: barbaric treatment

examples?

quote: ustice, and fair, open justice is essential to the integrity of a fair democracy, that, constitutionally, America should be proud of.

Exactly. These people are not American citizens (or even residents), so at least on a technical level it does not apply to them. However, it DOES mandate the government working "for the common defense".

	22-07-2003 04:28									#7
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quote: examples

Better part of two years without legal representation, living in cages, that can be viewed by guards and other inmates (no privacy), reports of beatings and rough treatment, at first unable to pray the required number of times per day (5 i think), lack of intellectual stimulation, being hooded and sensory deprivation (which is defined under the geneva convention as torture iirc).

	22-07-2003 04:30									#8
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quote: Exactly. These people are not American citizens (or even residents), so at least on a technical level it does not apply to them

They are human, and the principles of the constitution apply to humans, and especially those under the protection of that constitution, including prisoners and foreign nationals on US or US military soil.

quote: However, it DOES mandate the government working "for the common defense".

How a few dozen emaciated men, whose guilt has been far from proven represents a threat to that defence is beyond me. If you're going to ruin someones life for the sake of national security, you need something much stronger than little or no evidence.

	22-07-2003 04:32									#9
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quote: Better part of two years without legal representation

Bad? Maybe. Barbaric? No.

quote: living in cages

It's called a "jail". Most countries have them

quote: that can be viewed by guards and other inmates

You want to give a terrorist (even suspected) privacy?

quote: reports of beatings and rough treatment

From whom? (the reports that is).

at first unable to pray the required number of times per day (5 i think)

First, I'd like to know what the situation on this sort of thing is in normal prisons. Even so, I don't see who this is really a bad thing. Sucks for them.

quote: lack of intellectual stimulation

you mean bored? It is now barbaric not to AMUSE people?

quote: being hooded and sensory deprivation

Huh?

	22-07-2003 04:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by elijah How a few dozen emaciated men, whose guilt has been far from proven represents a threat to that defence is beyond me. If you're going to ruin someones life for the sake of national security, you need something much stronger than little or no evidence.

If trying them publicly would cause irreperable harm to US national security (revealing sources, etc.), then it falls under the mandate for common defense.

	22-07-2003 04:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Exactly. These people are not American citizens (or even residents), so at least on a technical level it does not apply to them. However, it DOES mandate the government working "for the common defense".

Did the USA sign the Geneva convention?

	22-07-2003 04:34									#12
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quote: Originally posted by elijah ...living in cages, that can be viewed by guards and other inmates (no privacy), ...

No comment on the rest but I do have to ask what kind of hotels you have masking themselves as prisons in Europe.

	22-07-2003 04:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by elijah They are human, and the principles of the constitution apply to humans, and especially those under the protection of that constitution, including prisoners and foreign nationals on US or US military soil.

How so? The constitution is a contract between US citizens and the US government.

	22-07-2003 04:35									#14
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Did the USA sign the Geneva convention?

Does the Geneva convention require that the US apply it's constitution to foreign nationals?

	22-07-2003 04:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Does the Geneva convention require that the US apply it's constitution to foreign nationals?

The real question you have to answer is if the Geneva Convention applies in this instance and then work from there.

	22-07-2003 04:37									#16
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Yes, but they haven't shown how it violates the Geneva convention. They've said that it violates the US constitution.

	22-07-2003 04:38									#17
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quote: It's called a "jail". Most countries have them

See privacy thing. Also most jail cells are larger than a single-figures of feet across.

quote: You want to give a terrorist (even suspected) privacy?

I want to give someone their full human rights until their guilt has been proven objectively beyond all reasonable doubt. Its called the law. Right now, guantanamo is an American police "state".

quote: From whom? (the reports that is)

Santa Clause, who do you think!! The people with guns for heavens sake!

quote: First, I'd like to know what the situation on this sort of thing is in normal prisons. Even so, I don't see who this is really a bad thing. Sucks for them

The right to pray and to exercise ones religion is a basic human right, respected most certainly in all British prisons, and most likely all US ones too.

quote: you mean bored? It is now barbaric not to AMUSE people?

I mean lack of intellectual stimulation being a logical extension of torture, even some defintions of torture also include the active denial of that opportunity iirc.

quote: Huh?

Everytime they are let out of their cages, they are hooded (which is torture), restrained by numerous shackles making walking a significant difficulty, being practically dragged by a number of guards.

	22-07-2003 04:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yes, but they haven't shown how it violates the Geneva convention. They've said that it violates the US constitution.

You have to show it applies in a given situation before you can say if it has been violated or not.

	22-07-2003 04:40									#19
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quote: How so? The constitution is a contract between US citizens and the US government.

And the protectees of that constitution

	22-07-2003 04:41									#20
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because they will get off if they are tried in civilian courts.

That is the truth. The fact is many of these guys didn't do anything. They are only held because they are terrorists or associated with terrorists.

They would be set free in civilian courts, hence why they aren't being tried there.

	22-07-2003 04:42									#21
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quote: Yes, but they haven't shown how it violates the Geneva convention. They've said that it violates the US constitution.

The USA signed up to that, and the constitution of the US states that the US has to abide by such conventions as they are integrated into the constitution. Thus if the US breaks GC, it is acting unconstitutionally. Thats part of the reason some argue the Iraq war to be unconstitutional, since it didnt have UN backing.

	22-07-2003 04:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by elijah quote: From whom? (the reports that is) Santa Clause, who do you think!! The people with guns for heavens sake!

I was asking who made the reports.

quote: The right to pray and to exercise ones religion is a basic human right, respected most certainly in all British prisons, and most likely all US ones too.

How were they denied the right? Were the being questioned during that time, or were they just not provided with some sort of facility (I don't know what they need to pray).

quote: I mean lack of intellectual stimulation being a logical extension of torture, even some defintions of torture also include the active denial of that opportunity iirc.

It's still stupid. You do not have a right not to be bored.

quote: Everytime they are let out of their cages, they are hooded (which is torture), restrained by numerous shackles making walking a significant difficulty, being practically dragged by a number of guards.

Where have you heard this? I doubt it, simply because it's a darned INEFFICIENT way of doing things.

	22-07-2003 04:43									#23
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According to the Geneva and Hague conventions these people are unlawful combatants meaning they didn't wear uniforms and are not fighting as part of a recognized national military. Thus, according to the Geneva and Hague conventions, they are entitled to absolutely no civil or military protections and can legally be summarily executed without trial or tribunal. The US has been much more gracious to these people then they legally have to and has agreed to at least let them have a tribunal which is exactly the same as any member of the US military would get if they were court martial.

	22-07-2003 04:43									#24
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quote: They would be set free in civilian courts, hence why they aren't being tried there

If they are innocent, set them free

	22-07-2003 04:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by elijah The USA signed up to that, and the constitution of the US states that the US has to abide by such conventions as they are integrated into the constitution. Thus if the US breaks GC, it is acting unconstitutionally. Thats part of the reason some argue the Iraq war to be unconstitutional, since it didnt have UN backing.

It is not unconstitutional to violate a treaty. It is a treaty violation. However, my question was how does the Geneva convention require the US to apply its constitution to foreign nationals.

	22-07-2003 04:45									#26
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quote: According to the Geneva and Hague conventions these people are unlawful combatants meaning they didn't wear uniforms and are not fighting as part of a recognized national military

It has yet to be proven that this is the case! It has yet to be proven that any of them were combatants (although I personally think some are, the US still needs evidence).

	22-07-2003 04:45									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You have to show it applies in a given situation before you can say if it has been violated or not.

That's my point! It doesn't.

	22-07-2003 04:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Thats part of the reason some argue the Iraq war to be unconstitutional, since it didnt have UN backing.

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Seriously. Can you point out someone who normaly expects to be taken seriously that argued that point?

	22-07-2003 04:46									#29
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you whacko lefties want to set terrorists free like Bill Clinton did.

it's no wonder most people have no respect for you.

and no, I'm not a right-winger. I'm a person who uses common sense- a moderate.

letting terrorists go is not a good thing.

	22-07-2003 04:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: barbaric treatment examples? quote: ustice, and fair, open justice is essential to the integrity of a fair democracy, that, constitutionally, America should be proud of. Exactly. These people are not American citizens (or even residents), so at least on a technical level it does not apply to them. However, it DOES mandate the government working "for the common defense".

Huh? The constitution applies to all those in the custody of the US justice agencies on US soil. It recognizes no conditions as to US citizenship or residency. Technically (according to some) it does not apply to Guantanamo Bay prisoners because they are on Cuban sovereign territory.