22-07-2003 10:09									#1
	Scientific Research Goals Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

There have been a number of ideas posted as to what research goals our civ should have, but up until now we have been grateful for whatever the hut gods would provide us with. That soon will change, as Invention cannot be far off. Therefore, this poll (and I hope it does not waste anyone's time ) is to establish what our first short term goal shall be (after invention, which is required for all of the options listed). Our science rate is too slow to allow us to not have longer term goals, and we must choose carefully, the children of tomorrow depend upon our decision today.

Explosives - so that we may more quickly build roads between our cities, roads to our enemies, mines for our cities, and irrigate from the vast water to our cities
Prerequisites that we still need before explosives: Invention, Gunpowder, Metalurgy

Tactics - to provide our Military with the might to trounce our enemies, both with Calvary, and their attack strength, and Alpine Troops, with their mobility on all kinds of terrain (even this god forsaken planet we have been placed upon).
Prerequisites that we still need before Tactics:
Invention, Gunpowder, Metallurgy, Leadership, Democracy, Conscription

Fundamentalism - to eliminate the happiness problems we are currently experiencing, to eliminate the need to provide production support to our armies, to eliminate the corruption and waste, to increase our tax base, and unfortunately to decrease our already horid Science Rate
Prerequisites that we still need before Fundamentalism:
Invention, Democracy, Conscription

Railroad - to allow our units to move quickly between our cities and fend off attacks from our neighbours, to allow our offensive units to more quickly get to the front lines and aid in the destruction of our enemies
Prerequisites that we still need before Railroad:
Invention, Physics, Steam Engine

Though these are the technologies suggested in the last poll, there may be others that will be suggested, please post them here, and post your reasons, for the consideration of all the people of the Apolytonian Imperium.

Respectively submitted,
* Sparrowhawk Science Minister

	22-07-2003 13:33									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

With a map this large, explosives get my vote.

We need to stitch an empire, not isolated citystates. With roads, we can concentrate the vast might of athe Apolytonian Imperium.

My second choice would be gunpowder, on the road to Fundamentalism.



Edit:

We need gunpowder to get Explosives in the first place.

	22-07-2003 15:02									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

@ obi

They all seen so far away

The minister of war longs for the day when engineers build railways for shipping our howies to the front

	22-07-2003 17:43									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

RR can also be traded/gifted to the AIs, encouraging them to build roads for our military. But engineers to build it should come first (which also delays Darwin's for our enemies).

In order, we need Explosives, RR, and Fundy. A celebrating fundy with science at zero can be a trading machine, bringing us the military techs faster than our current (pathetic) rate.

	23-07-2003 15:45									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit . A celebrating fundy with science at zero can be a trading machine

I will enjoy seeing this without the building of camels

	23-07-2003 21:58									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I say explosives then railroad. The map is so huge that our biggest disadvantage is the speed of our units.

	24-07-2003 06:16									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, Explosives at least. It would give excess unhappy pop something very useful to do, and the key to happiness for the unhappy unemployed is of course to force them to work on improvement projects!

	24-07-2003 06:41									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, *that* has me totally confused!

	24-07-2003 13:27									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Good. The poor AI will have even less idea what I'm talking about. Misdirection before the invasion - that will work

	24-07-2003 14:54									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I will enjoy seeing this without the building of camels

Tithes will help. We may not be able to get the science bonuses from the caravans, but we can still crank out taxes from a large number of cities coating the map.

	25-07-2003 02:42									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I will still enjoy seeing it

	25-07-2003 06:16									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Fundy all the way.

As it stands, our cities can't grow without happiness from wonders (which we can't build), camels (which we can't harness), or improvements (which we can't afford).

Once we have fundy, we can crank out enough diplomats to steal all the techs we could possibly want.

A large part of our free unit support in Monarchy is being wasted on martial law units. Fundy will free up a lot of shields.

Finally All the other techs will be a LOT more useful once we're in Fundy. Examples:

Explosives will be better in Fundy because we have free unit support for LOTS of engineers, and we will be able to better provide the food because more workers will be working food producing tiles, and not doing elvis impressions to keep the peace.

Tactics will be better in Fundy because we can build 8 Cavalry/Alpines per city with no unit support cost.

Railroad will be better in Fundy because we will be able to provide the engineers/settlers to be build a huge RR network, faster.

Fundy will be better in Fundy because we'll be able to build a lot of cheap Fundamentalist units. Remember, not one of our cities is producing even 10 shields! Unit costs will be lower, and we can rushbuy easier with the 20-shield Fundamentalist as a building block.

	25-07-2003 06:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

After typing all that, I posted my vote and saw that I had vigorously lobbied when the issue was already decided, the other way.

I feel like a California Democrat (or a B.C. Tory).

	25-07-2003 06:24									#14
	Got spare money?

Yet, I still hate being a Fundy government. Maybe it is idealogical. I'd rather go to Communism (even though I don't like that idealogically, either). In practical game terms, Communism is the way for us to go in this game.

	25-07-2003 14:18									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Yet, I still hate being a Fundy government. Maybe it is idealogical.

Cavebear:

That's funny. I don't have any ideological problems with a Fundamentalist government. Maybe it's just those corrupt notions of political liberalism causing you to doubt our destiny.

	25-07-2003 17:02									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I disaggree with cavebear

	25-07-2003 22:27									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I disagree with Cavebear
I agree with Hydey
I have no idea what obiwan is saying

	26-07-2003 01:18									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Our destiny is communism, not fundamentalism.

	26-07-2003 06:58									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Our destiny is communism, not fundamentalism.

Cavebear:



You wouldn't be planning a bloodless coup, now would you.

Sparrowhawk:

Just a bit of roleplaying, that's al.

	26-07-2003 15:45									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I still disagree with Cavebear

	26-07-2003 19:45									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Roleplaying is good, it's just you lost me in the verbage.

	26-07-2003 23:00									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Hydey I still disagree with Cavebear

You're just saying that because I was cruel enough to agree with you earlier on a few matters.

	27-07-2003 19:46									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

I think STYOM makes a valid point about the benifits of Fundi. (Although I'm not quite sure about the 'Fundy will be better in Fundy' part )

But as distances are so big I think there is a need for RR asap. There is nothing I hate more then moving an army for 20+ turns only to find out AI has upgraded defence making our attackers useless

Besides, we only loose the trade from the newly conquered city's as we can rehome our army's there.
( A city with 1 shieldproduction and 4 waste can still support 8 units under Mon)

	28-07-2003 16:08									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by cavebear You're just saying that because I was cruel enough to agree with you earlier on a few matters.

Stop reminding me

	26-10-2003 01:44									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Hydey @ obi They all seen so far away The minister of war longs for the day when engineers build railways for shipping our howies to the front

Between the fact that our former Minister of War, Hydey has apparently returned to Apolyton, and recent events in the game, I thought I would go back and post our goals from a couple of months ago. While they were indeed far away at the time, we have accomplished them all, and currently have no scientific goals.

Would anyone care to suggest future scientific goals (though Howies, as Hydey long ago suggested, may not be necessary ) or are all content to attack with Calvary to finish off our opponents?

	26-10-2003 02:10									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I would very much like to see us discover Communism so that we can get to Espionage for Spies. Quite frankly, Diplomats are to Spies as Settlers are to Engineers and Horsemen are to Cavalry!

Vet Spies have a 60% chance of taking out a specified destruction (like City Walls). We need them. We ned them greatly. I think they are key to our getting through the numerous cities that remain to be taken.

	26-10-2003 11:43									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by cavebear Vet Spies have a 60% chance of taking out a specified destruction (like City Walls).

The GL is ... well great ... and life is short. I think I missed this rather important nugget of knowledge.

Is it a well known fact, a working hypothesis or a rule of thumb?

I assume they have an even higher channce of other specified targets.

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-10-2003 03:29									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Well, I checked again and it turns out I was looking at the "Steal Technology" section. There does not appear to be equivalent figures for "Industrial Sabotage". My apologies.

	27-10-2003 11:44									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by cavebear Well, I checked again and it turns out I was looking at the "Steal Technology" section. There does not appear to be equivalent figures for "Industrial Sabotage". My apologies.

For what it's worth, my (anecdotal) experience is that the chances seem to be about 1 in 3. However, that still appears to be better than letting the spy choose her own target when the city has a lot of white goods. On the other hand, the chances of being captured seem to rise. So whether to specify the target may depend on how many spys you have and whether it's a one-off or part of a long campaign of bribery.

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-10-2003 18:24									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So your spy's caught trying to destroy the city walls.
So what! We'll just send the next spy along to do it, and keep doing so until one stops rolling snake eyes. It's basically the same as you'd do with dips in ancient combat, but you use up far fewer spies than you would dips.