23-07-2003 09:25									#1
	Breaking our NAP Remove this text

Yes, we must now seriously consider this. Our Pact runs until turn 130, which is FAR too long for us to wait for this war.

quote: Non-Aggression Pact between Apolyton and GCA In the interest of peace and future cooperation, to ensure our security and friendship, the nations of Apolyton and The Gamecatcher Alliance glady agree to the following: There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission. Nor shall our units interfere with the travel and movement of each other outside of these borders. This agreement shall last 40 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed This agreement shall not be implied in any way to create an alliance between GCA and Apolyton. This agreement is a pledge between both of our nations to keep the peace and to not engage in hostilities of any kind with each other. In the event that war is declared on or by any nation that Apolyton or GCA is in contact with, this agreement may be re-negotiated upon the agreement of both parties.

Frankly, I see no loopholes here. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. We never drafted this agreement with that in mind, we had assumed at the time that CDG would be our first target and we'd destroy GCA long after that. We were quite content to extend this to 40 turns...

We are probably going to have to bite the bullet and take a rep hit on this. CFC is willing to sign a pact that keeps certain acts performed during this war (like breaking this NAP) a secret from all other teams. We could hope that "Dead Civs tell no tales" and that GCA dies before we they have contact. However, contact with the rest of the world could come quickly through one of our Explorer Ships.

Our Rep will increase in CFC's eyes, but there will always be the memory that Apolyton breaks deals when necessary. Ultimately, we did it to HELP CFC and we need to remind them of that if they ever get antsy.

But let's begin discussing this very critical and very controvercial topic: When do we break the NAP with GCA, if ever? Under what circumstances? If we do, what should we say about it?

--Togas

	23-07-2003 11:38									#2
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I don't think we should break it....yet.

1) We aren't ready for a full scale war with GCA yet. Waiting is better strategically.
2) CFC isn't in critical trouble yet. We can however aid them in other ways, gifts of gold to produce units might be one of the best ways. This doesn't violate our NAP with GCA, and placates CFC somewhat when we explain we don't want to violate an agreement before its necessary.
3) IMO, the rep hit for violating an agreement with fresh ink on it will seem worse than violating one thats about to expire anyways. There's no real legal difference, but for propaganda purposes its harder to justify it so soon after we agreed to it. If however we wait another dozen turns and break it after some critical loss on CFC's side, we can claim we fear continental domination by GCA.

We should definately be frank with CFC about the NAP, its duration, and that we don't want to violate an agreement we signed if we can avoid it. We should then say the only way we will violate it is if our survival depends on it, and that in this case that means their survival as well since GCA swallowing them will leave us as the last target. We then offer non-combat assistance in the interim up until the point we can legally attack. CFC may not like it as much as us jumping in now, but they should understand and respect us more for it.

	23-07-2003 11:48									#3
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I had put this in the message above, but decided it deserves its own post to logically split the topics (may need its own thread).

I'm fairly worried about our position in the world. We know the teams on the other continent have a higher score than us and they are rapidly rising. We can conclude from that that the other teams are probally peacefully expanding and not fighting wars (yet, they maybe building up for one). As a result, our continent is likely to be falling increasingly behind in the tech race, and the longer contact isn't made the further we are likely to fall behind.

The only way I can think to minimize this (provided our galleys dont make contact, after that this is a moot point) is to coordinate research.

I had originally posted that we should try to deal with GCA and then with CFC coordinating with all 3 teams (without GCA's knowledge, shutting them out of the CFC tech advances).

Problems with this:
1) It helps GCA get closer to chilvary, something we don't want. The short term benefits of slowing down their research are fairly immense. I honestly don't think we should trade with them anymore at all after more thought honestly. Even unrelated techs free them up to research related techs.
2) Neither GCA nor CFC are likely to be doing exactly stellar research funding anyways.

Best I think we can do is hope for contact sooner rather than later, and to trade as much as possible with CFC and very carefully weigh the cost vs benefits of any trades we make with GCA from this point on.


EDIT:
I also want to point out that I am not worried about our future militarily. I think post contact (if its not made on these current voyages of exploration, that is if it requires astronomy or navigation to make contact) will see no worse of a situation than knights/muskets vs calvary/rifleman.

Not a good situation, but I dont think an invasion is likely. The reason why is despite the tech difference, we'll be entrenched enough that any invasion of our continent will still require a significant devotion of resources. Given that the other continent won't be unified, I doubt the other teams will want to invest the resources and leave themselves more vulnerable to attack from civs on their own continent. Also with us being behind they likely won't see us as a threat anyways, so an invasion isn't likely on those grounds.

The exceptions:
If there is still free land on our continent to colonize, if so one or more of the other civs might try to gain a forward base for future operations.

If one of the other civs needs a resource we or CFC has. We can combat this somewhat by being very willing to trade. Make it easier (ie cheaper) to buy what they need than to come take it, at least until we are confident we can repel an assault.

Last edited by wervdon on 23-07-2003 at 11:56

	23-07-2003 12:10									#4
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We should not get too concerned about getting behind in tech.

In my PBEMS (and in the PTWDG) the civilisation that gets stuck on the island catches up pretty quick once contact is made.

There seems to be a perception that a large amount of money can be made by whoever gets first contact. This is true in SP... but in my experience, there is always a mad scramble by human players to get a "piece of the action". They will undercut each other and we can expect some very cheap tech.

Your concerns about keeping them off our continent is quite true however. We may not be in any kind of a position to keep our continent to our selves when we do finally meet the other teams.



Back to the topic ... Breaking the NAP.

Our team must do whats in our best interest.
If that means breaking it... then so be it.

	23-07-2003 12:27									#5
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Togas brought up a good point in chat, that even if we break the NAP, we are doing it out of the intent to aid our friends and to protect our own interests. GCA will, the way they are going, one day soon perhaps threaten our entire continent. They are presently at war with two of the civs on it that are allied against them, and that we too are in this alliance, just non-participating as of yet. GCA is a rogue nation that threatens everyone on the continent, who are united in their efforts to stop a domino effect of GCA rolling over everyone. GCA will not stop the war on CFC despite our efforts and in the effors of stabilising the region and curbing this international threat we will move as one to curb GCA aggression. What then is an agreement with a civ that threatens so much even worth?

I'm sure this can be reworded somewhat, but it should sound a little familiar to those who know anything about recent world events. Screw what others think of us - no civ in the future will ever be idiots enough to sign agreements where they are very vulnerable anyway unless they are desperate - an agreement will be worded so as to benefit both civs with a minimum of risk, and it will only be in really exceptional circumstances that any will be broken at all. We will have such a circumstance. This game is not about keeping our reputation absolutely spotless at the expense of gainiang a significant advantage, but we must go for those advantages where we see them. I believe that we should go ahead with attacking GCA despite breaking an NAP even if we didn't have the support of oth CFC and CDG. We can't stay friends with everyone, and we can choose to watch 2 die to one who will become strong enough to challenge us, or we can side with 2 freinds (soon to be one) to head off a threat against said friends. We are acting honorably by defending CFC from extinction - we are not by letting them die because of one niggly little agreement with a belligerent power that needs to be stopped.

Cach my drift?

	23-07-2003 13:06									#6
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I suppose we renewed that after CDG DoW'd them, correct?

Well then, we will just have to grin and bear it. On the bright side... they lack Math, Phil, CoL, Lit, and most importantly... MapMaking. They cannot make contact with the other side themselves, and they are out of the way to be the first contacted by the 'others' with boats.

We have time, my friends. We have time.

	23-07-2003 13:24									#7
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We do have plenty of time. We will be in a full blown Republic and our economy will be rolling by the time turn 130 comes around. Maybe we should get CFC to backoff a bit and save some action till then? Or would it be tter to let them duke it out? If GCA even hints at taking a CFC city, we need to forego the NAP and declare war on GCA. We should not wait till CFC is weakened by GCA to start this.

	23-07-2003 13:37									#8
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Why?

As long as part of GCA's army is elsewhere, then that heps us out. As long as CFC is still alive they do us good. Obviously the longer they can keep GCA tied up, the better, but we should not feel obligated to attack until CFC is literally collapsing in the same way CDG did. The longer we wait, the stronger we'll be. The only reason we even agreed to attack GCA was because we were going to anyways.

If CFC ends up crippled and we end up stronger when we attack, as long as GCA's army is still bogged down, what do we lose?

	23-07-2003 13:48									#9
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I'm sure i've missed something because I haven't been keeping up with everything, but it seems like the assumption is that CFC and GCA are just going to fight it out until one crumbles or we jump in. What is that founded on? Isn't it possible that they could declare peace and GCA would stop attacking and consolidate its gains in the north?

Again, I know I'm missing something, either tell me of the situation or point me in the right direction.

	23-07-2003 13:50									#10
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Trip, once GCA assembles the army of doom for CFC, they will divert mil production to our front. Preferably, we are moving before that point, but when is that point?

	23-07-2003 20:53									#11
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Breaking this NAP is going to boost our Rep with CFC, while steadfastly holding out until turn 130 is going to seriously strain relations with them. They are already asking us when we're going to break it, and expect that since we agreed to work with them to destroy GCA, that we certainly will break the NAP to fullfill our part of the bargain.

For a while we can lead CFC on, give them excuses, tell them we're still preparing, but not forever and certainly not for 30+ turns. I'm doing my best to ensure that CFC gives us Construction as previously agreed, but I have a sense that they will use the Construction "chip" to get us to pledge more immediate support in this war.

Ultimately in this game, as in all others, the ends justify the means. If we win, then anything and everything we did to attain that win (with the notable exception of cheating) will be seen as contributing to that win. Reputation aids in diplomacy in a few areas:

1) If a nation has to make a choice between two nations that seemingly have the same, or nearly the same, thing to offer. The Rep of those two will be weighed to some extent.

2) When making a deal with a team with a good/bad rep ... contacts with the "bad rep" team tend to be more carefully scrutinized, more detailed, and more strict.

3) Deals which require trust (you gift then I gift ... you give now, I give later) happen less often to teams with bad reps.

4) Militarily, a team that has a bad rep faces a greater border guard, and a greater prospect of a "preemptive" backstab from an ally.

HOWEVER, despite all of these negatives, teams do not use Rep as the primary judge of the value of a deal or alliance. What is most important in every case is what you have to offer. What is gained.

CFC needs an ally. They need help. We could be the devil, the most untrustworthy team in existance and they'd happily ally with us and trade with us and cooperate with us because defeating GCA is more important in their mind, and it's worth the risk. Furthermore, as we get involved in politics on the "other continent" we will find an opening to aid an up-and-coming power unseat their neighborhood rival. Even if we have a slight rep hit the benefit we could give to one of those teams by siding against their neighbor is priceless. They will happily overlook our past sins because of the benefit we can offer them in the present.

And besides, we have one of the best "spin" staffs in the whole ISDG.

--Togas

	23-07-2003 21:25									#12
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Breaking the NAP pre-republic is something we should avoid if at all possible.

There is no sense in crossing the border with a force which will only be squashed just after it takes Elucidium and before doing any real damage. CFC is just going to have to understand that if we go too early, we could face the same fate as CDG which will leave them totally screwed.

We don't need to wait 30-40 turns though, just 15-20 to finish our buildup. As a side benefit, if CFC puts up enough of a fight, then maybe GCA will start to pull back its CDG army to deal with them in that time frame, making our jobs all the easier.....

Also IMO the rep hit we take for violating the agreement on the spot is much less than violating it once its clear we have to do so for our own survival. At least thats how we can spin breaking it once our buildup is complete :P

	24-07-2003 05:43									#13
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THe state of CFC seems top be hoding, but who knows how long that can go for? Even if they build an army with that GL they might not have much luck. What I am most wary about (apart from a non-Republic GA) is if CFC is killed outright by GCA, then there is only the one place for them to concentrate on - us. That would make any war with them nigh-on impossible. Casualties would be very high and things would drag on endlessly.

Thus we must ensure we act before that happens, and we can't risk CFC collapsing like CDG did. After all, despite their ineptitude, CDG did have Immortals, was attacking a neighbour who had trusted them with a NAP whilst their own armies were away and was in a GA. CFC isn't so lucky, and smartness can only go so far in a war if you are facing superior armies. We will almost certainly have to break the NAP, but the reasons for doing so are good for Poly, assuming we win. This is why winning is our top priority, and we maxzimise the chances of this by attacking as soon as we are ready, before the NAP ends.

	24-07-2003 07:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt THe state of CFC seems top be hoding, but who knows how long that can go for?

Is there anything we can do to support CFC in holding GCA's advance ? A few thots :

1. I read in an earlier post that they are going to hook-up on Iron. That's good. Do they need other resource like Horse ? Since we have Horse, & we don't really need it, we can always trade it to them for something ?

2. Of course, you probably tells me that there is no road link between CFC and Poly. So, can we give them an "Infrastructure Loan" to build a harbor ?

3. Or do we simply give them a loan (we give gold, they give gpt) for them to upgrade their Warriors ?

What are your thots ?

Btw, I support breaking the NAP like most of you do. But not now. Wait till we are in Republic, our Army is strong, and when we are ready to go into Golden Age. Another point to think about is - Do we want to have our Golden Age at the beginning of the War ? towards the end of the War ? or have it before we began the War ?

What do you think ?

	24-07-2003 08:01									#15
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Unfortunately loans do CFC little good in despotism Giving them money to build units was my first thought too, but about all money can do for them right now is upgrades and allow a higher science/luxury slider.

We can ask how many warriors they have that need upgrading though and if they need gold for that, I'd support a loan provided they save them for defense until we give the go for a joint assault.

	24-07-2003 09:13									#16
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Ok first of all, the most important thing here is:

Backstabbing only matters when the other teams mind. If everyone else agrees on you backstabbing them then there's no problem and the other teams will just shut up and be glad that you're doing their dirty work.

So, as long as there is no contact with the other team, we'd be doing kind of an Arrian's Deception here, espeially since CFC is on our hit list next. Problem will be with the other continent.

GCA will go and scream to the UN and will privately go and scream with the other teams that we broke a NAP. That is where our rep hit will hurt us as I'm sure the other teams will only trust us when doing evil deeds (muahahaha...) but not necessarily as trusted allies. However, if we eventually find ourselves in the position of being in sole control of the continent while the other 4 teams are still intact, the possiblity of us winning is much improved and we should really not give a damn.

	24-07-2003 09:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen However, if we eventually find ourselves in the position of being in sole control of the continent while the other 4 teams are still intact, the possiblity of us winning is much improved and we should really not give a damn.

I must disagree. If we are in sole control of this continent, we will be mighty, industrial...and backward. They'll run us into the ground technologically, and when we are fielding hordes of tanks, their nuclear weapons and modern armor will clear our corpses from the field.

We need CFC or GCA alive, not dead, for the forseeable future.

	24-07-2003 10:02									#18
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Yes, CFC will share with us for quite some time. A Tech partnership will be formed. I also beleive we wil be in contact with another Civ before GCA is gone, just a hunch based upon what I can see on the map.