23-07-2003 13:40									#1
	Meeting the Other Continent Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We should probably sort out what we need to do if/when we meet the civs from the other continent.

Some issues we need to discuss:

• Do we trade our map? If so, to whom? Under what conditions? For what price?
  
• Do we trade techs with them? If so, to whom? For what will we trade Republic away?
  
• Do we trade contacts? Etc.
  
• Do we give them any other information? Offer NAPs? Alliances? RoP agreements?

We need to have a policy in place so that we're not rushing around trying to get things done impromptu when it happens.

	23-07-2003 13:47									#2
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very good questions. The most valuable thing we will have is the map so long as we have sole contact. We should speak to CFC about this and make sure the maps of this side stay on this side. We should also seek to stall any contact for GCA for as long as possible. CFC too, but that is not so easy if we are not the only sea farers.

Tech. I would expect to see that tech will be plentiful over there. I would trade Republic for Currency and Polytheism in a heart beat if the opportunity is there.

Contacts? Not such a good idea to trade those, except perhaps for tech, and then only for contact with CFC.

	23-07-2003 13:53									#3
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I'm usually loathe to trade my map in an MP game. Another (better?) idea would be to combine an ROP and NAP agreement so that each team is allowed to put naval units in the other's cultural borders, but they aren't allowed to cross the border with any land units.

Trade contacts? If you are the research leader on your continent (which IIRC you are): No, make the other teams sweat it out for a while. Try and get the contacts of the other continent if you can.

	23-07-2003 17:13									#4
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Try to get contact details for other nations through the first one we encounter? As a popular Kiwism goes, Yeah right.

They will be just as cagey as we are about this, if anything. In all probability, we will need to rely on getting contacts the old fashioned way - through meandering until we find them ourselves.

Tech trades should be done instantly wherever we can without interfering with CFC trades (although with their hands full they shouldn't be able to spend much on science!). One thing: if we can get Monarchy from them, should we get it and sell on to CFC and/or GCA? It could really help CFC, if they could survive the Anarchy.

Map trades, perhaps we could get a TM trade done - that would surely be less problematic for all. I guess it depends if they can tell where we have come from. If they are on that island we can see, then they will be able to see the land near CFC. If they are on the next then it may be giving them more of a hint than we might like.

	23-07-2003 20:31									#5
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contact trades: depends on who contacts who first..... If they are already over here and heading for gca, then what have we got to lose....

maps: nope.

tech: anything we can get is good.

resources: yes.

luxuries: yes.

	23-07-2003 21:21									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Do we trade our map? If so, to whom? Under what conditions? For what price? Do we trade techs with them? If so, to whom? For what will we trade Republic away? Do we trade contacts? Etc. Do we give them any other information? Offer NAPs? Alliances? RoP agreements?

Our first diplomatic goal will be to size up their tech rate and establish beneficial tech exchanges. While doing this we MUST obtain contact with at least one other civ. Once we have two civs we can pit against each other, we can obtain virtually any tech at any price.

We must attempt to size up the relationships and power arrangements between the teams, figure out who is alligned against who, and figure out who we want to make as our friends. The nation(s) that are closest to our continent provide the greatest threat and we will want to befriend nations on the other side of them, and explore future MMP agreements.

I will be happy to offer Republic for any equal tech trade value, but I anticipate that we will shop it around for a tech from the next age.

We only trade contacts if we have no other choice. We definately would not give contact with GCA, but we might give contact with CFC if they are just about to attain contact themselves. As for buying contacts, if the price is right we do it, but we should try to seek them out on our own ... the mere fact that we are seeking them out puts pressure on the team we first meet to make a firesale to us before someone else gets the chance.

We will likely sign NAPs early on, but only after we learn about the politics and tensions of their continent. We will later work out alliances once we have a good feel for how things are likely to turn out in their conflicts.

Maps? We should not give our WM unless they offer something amazing for it. We should not offer our TM either. We have an advantage -- we found them, they didn't find us. We know where they are, they don't know where we are. The mere fact that we know these things will make it easier for them to sell us their WM (we would know anyhow). They have no such leverage with us, unless they have such a great tech lead that we'd be forced to give them our WM to catchup (but that is unlikely, given the way we will play the tech market).

--Togas

	24-07-2003 05:36									#7
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Might I suggest we put a high priority on establishing embassies with at least some of any civs we meet. This will help us get a view of all resources they have connected, their start location and all ongoing trades/diplomatic states. This would save so much guesswork than if we tried to deduce these things for ourselves, and it is very possible that map trades would be far in the future, thus city investigations would be our only means of learning of their land.

	24-07-2003 05:42									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hooray for 80-120 gold embassies.

	24-07-2003 05:49									#9
	Got spare money?

We may well have all that gold to spare with tech trades, resource trades (eventually) and Republican GA.

	24-07-2003 10:08									#10
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Okay, big question #2:

What do we tell them about us and our continent?

They will be able to assume a couple things from our score and our power. But what do we tell them? Do we tell them we have contact with the rest of the 4 (3) civs? Do we describe our geography? Our size? Our plans?

	24-07-2003 13:11									#11
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Trip Okay, big question #2: What do we tell them about us and our continent? They will be able to assume a couple things from our score and our power. But what do we tell them? Do we tell them we have contact with the rest of the 4 (3) civs? Do we describe our geography? Our size? Our plans?

1. They will know by then that CDG has kicked the bucket. At least one of the civs they don't have contact with must be responsible. Since GCA's score and then our score will be the ones going up as a consequence, they might figure it was a division of Poland (if they watch scores that carefully...).

Regardless, they're going to ask what happened to CDG.

2. Whatever we do, I don't recommend outright LYING to them. Any lie we tell them about such things will be EASY to confirm as a lie in the very near future from when we tell them. First impressions die hard...

Refraining from disclosing information is a different thing, altogether, however.

3. We will obviously want contact with all of the other civs (assuming they all have contact with each other), but I doubt the first civ we contact will behave just like the AI and be willing to sell us JUST contacts for a tech because we know we can get maps and tech from the other guys on their continent. We may have to contact seperate civs individuallly to get better deals.

The most important issue, I think, will be what techs they have to offer and what techs we have to offer.

As for what to sell... I recommend not selling them contact unless our war with the other civs on our continent is OVER (likely not).

	24-07-2003 17:12									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Actually, the Power graph may not give away our situation, because for all we know, the other continent's powers are greater. We may look to them as Elucidium now looks to us.

Re: What we tell the other continent... I think falling back into our "Dumb polite builder" role might be the way to go.

"Oh, there's three of us, one civ was smashed by another, so savage."

"Maps? Oh, goodness, I don't know if we would want to upset anyone else with giving you that info- unless maybe we could show them your map, too?"

"War? We're not at war with anyone. GCA is threatening us, though, and we really just want to be left alone to build. We're going for a cultural victory, you know!"

Etc,etc,etc.

	24-07-2003 19:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Actually, the Power graph may not give away our situation, because for all we know, the other continent's powers are greater. We may look to them as Elucidium now looks to us.

Highly likely.

However, if/when they see that our power is 3 times as much as our neighbors we may have an issue.

	24-07-2003 22:15									#14
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You know, I just had a Demon-Fried thought....

Given that it is reasonable to assume the other continent is technologically at LEAST our peers, if not more, it is reasonable to assume they have mapmaking.

What is the possibility that someone out west of us already HAS seen CFC and withdrawn.... and is planning a major naval invasion of same? If I saw my score vs theirs, I might be thinking it, particularly if I was shut in on the far east end of a peninsula with hungry, fat neighbors.

What might that mean for us, and how reasonable/likely do you suppose that is?

	24-07-2003 22:21									#15
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Large naval invasions are very very tricky to pull off so early. Teams are usually much more focused upon building city 16 than building 8-10 Galleys for a large invasion.

I also doubt an exploring Galley would turn back. Who knows what riches lie in wait? Even if we were in any situation where we could plan a big invasion of an overseas neighbor, there's not much to be gained from doing so. It's not as though you can reasonably create a second core so early, plus there's probably plenty of problems at home to deal with (look at our continent... ). Lot of Galleys + units to fill them with is a major investment which all but the most reckless (yes, I said it ) of teams would never risk in the cuthroat early game.

	25-07-2003 05:02									#16
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If CDG hasn't kicked the official bucket before we have made contact, we can use that to trade for other contacts/Maps. Just make sure that CDG doesn't trade it to anyone else...

We will finally be able to see if CFC has contact with anyone else....

E_T

	29-07-2003 15:20									#17
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We should not trade our map. Let them figure it out themselves. UNLESS we can get it for their map, with the mutual promise not to trade maps to other civs anymore (for a certain number of turns).

We should not trade for contacts. It's far better (cheaper) to sail on and discover other civs for ourselves.

We should have one person standing by to act as a liaison/ambassador.

We should be very careful giving out information. They can see by our score that we're not the biggest one out there, and we should not relieve them of that impression.