23-07-2003 22:04									#1
	Evil Plan (No offense MZ) Tired of ads?

Just got to thinking, GCA has 3 sources of iron in its borders:

1) North near Elucidium, should fall to us easily.

2) South on the coast by Dun na Anarchy on a mountain.

3) Central 1 tile from the inland sea, not connected last we knew, probally still isn't as they've already connected one and this one isn't in a cities radius.

The evil plan is to plant units on both the southern ones the same turn we invade elucidium.

The central one is easy, we move a galley with a couple of mercs through the northern choke point and land just west of it on the mountain, the next turn we move on it. Unless they have a unit nearby they can't stop it as the central iron source is surrounded by mountains and forests none of which was roaded last we knew.

The southern one is tricky, they'll see us coming. Here's the evil plan part. We use princess of apolyton and her swordman. We just tell GCA that the ship is returning after an unsuccessful exploration (no matter what we really find), when we get to dun, if the iron is undefended we plop down on it and pillage the next turn.

Sure we'll lose the swordsman (maybe even pre-pillage) but if it works they are denied iron for a while, and more importantly they have to devote resources to getting us out of their core while we advance from the north with our "Stack of Doom".

The point of the iron grabbing isn't so much the resources as confusion and misdirection. If we succeed in denying them iron, then thats just icing.


I haven't looked at it, but its also possible we could re-inforce princess by loading more units on it west from BoP by ferring them across the west side of the in-land sea. Adding a merc to the landing would greatly enhance our chances of holding the iron long enough to pillage and of costing them several units trying to reclaim it.

NOTE: Their horses are also coastal, but I doubt we could hold the tile long enough to pillage as its grassland.



EDIT: One possibility I had overlooked when posting this was coordinating this with CFC and getting them to land on and secure the southern iron supply. If they are able, they could sneak by BoP and land more units than we are capable of sneaking in with princess.

Last edited by wervdon on 23-07-2003 at 22:18

	24-07-2003 00:02									#2
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon I haven't looked at it, but its also possible we could re-inforce princess by loading more units on it west from BoP by ferring them across the west side of the in-land sea. Adding a merc to the landing would greatly enhance our chances of holding the iron long enough to pillage and of costing them several units trying to reclaim it.

This would also trigger the GA a bit earlier wouldn't it? Instead of waiting a turn or two, they would surely attack on the first turn and probably lose a unit to him

	24-07-2003 05:47									#3
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CFC seems to have no Galleys and may be difficult to convince in devoting the resources otherwise where they are facing attack overland.

We would need to count on GCA seeing our Galleys and realising the threat to their Iron, thus they may have a unit or two nearby to attack any landing units before they get a chance to pillage.

This would have to be done when the troops are ready, so we have some time to discuss this further.

	24-07-2003 06:51									#4
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We are not that far from Catchopolis as some people think. If the roads hold out...

T1. We can be next to Elucid. If they build a temple, we can use a settler pop to still land adjacent on T1.

T2. Take Elucid. If it was lightly held, then we advance the stack adjacent to Goats the same turn.

T3. Take Goats.

T4. We can be ajacent to Algalord.

T5. Take Algalord.

T6. Advance to Catchopolis 8 8. From there we can advance again on T7 to C 8 and assault on T8, or goo into the hills and cross the river on T7 and 8, then assault on T9.

What this progressions shows, is that we are 9 or 10 turns of movement and offensive combat from GCA's capital, and crippling them. It is not intended to suggest that we can advance that quickly. There will be rest required in some places, certainly. This all assumes that we attack only with slow movers, and that the roads remain intact.

In reality, I would definitely favour some horse. We could make a grab for Elucid on turn 1 if they do not get a temple up in time, and an invstigation shows it to be vulnerable.

Flanking with some galleys could be a good idea, especially for resourse denial, and picking off Dyes, and Server Fire. No more than 2 galleys, with 3 sword and 1 merc though, based on an early war and a smaller unit count. We will need to guard our own flank on the SE penninsula anyway.

	24-07-2003 07:59									#5
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We are 14 tiles from Catch if we go from Cuido through Elucidium. Roads can obviously cut the # of turns down from there, however, that depends on us having a string of successful city invasions without losing too many troops (otherwise we can't use the roads).

I'm not suggesting we don't invade by land though. In fact, I think a full scale galley invasion is a bad idea (no offense to trip), due to the amount of resources we'd need to invest to land a sizable enough force all at once.

What we are talking about here is a much smaller scale landing and a relatively minor investment of our resources (1 new galley with 2 mercs to land on the central iron, and princess + her swordsman to land on the other). Those units will be lost (not the galleys), but in the mean time they will accomplish one thing for sure:

They will force GCA to devote resources to their heartland to stop us rather than beelining northward to immediately meet our army. It also uses our mercs for what they are best at: Defense. We park the merc on the mountain, fortify, and let them try to play king of the mountain with him. Sure he will perish, but probally not before they lose a few swords trying to unroot him.

Secondarily, if we succeed in the pillage they will go several turns without iron even if they kill the swordsman immediately after. This is a minor benefit (they can complete any swords in process afterall and can probally repair the road before they need more), but it is nice for the annoyance factor.

And yes timing is essential the idea here is that at least three things happen on the same turn:
1) Princess lands her swordsman (and merc if we can get one to her) on their connected iron.
2) We declare war and cross the border in the north.
3) We land 2 mercs 2 turns away from the central iron.

And if we can talk CFC into it, they can also assault BoP by land at the same time. Hopefully it'll be too much for GCA to deal with all at once and they'll decide to let our troops take out the captured CDG cities relatively unopposed.

Worst that can happen is we lose the 3 or 4 units we land without pillaging their iron and costing them any units (that is GCA's luck continues). If so, its a relatively minor loss. Best case we cut off their iron and they lose half a dozen swords trying to retake the mountain and still fail.

	24-07-2003 09:21									#6
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I don't like the idea, and I'll tell you why.

The idea that we could steal iron or possibly horses from GCA is a noble and well-meaning one, but in reality it just won't shape up even under the best circumstances.

Currently GCA has 3 sources of iron. 1 will be easily captured with the fall of Elucidium. The other two are much trickier.

Okay, say we turn the PoA around right now. First off, I don't like that idea to begin with. Look how valuable the PoA and Jagjef have been to us. So far 50 gold from just those two units, and we still haven't even gotten to the meat of the journey yet, which begins in 3 turns once we finally reach mystery isle. Suppose we find the other continent. Would it not be best to have two Galleys able to go in opposite directions, continuing to hunt barb camps all the while exploring?
Even if the PoA is turned around, 1 Swordsman is not going to last very long. It's highly likely that he's destroyed on the first turn, and that's even if the iron isn't covered. It won't be hard for them to stick a single unit on that mountain. And if they do, the entire plan is shot.

Second, a Galley through the chokepoint to attack GCA's center iron. Well, even with 2 NMs it would probably not be significant. Keep in mind we have to take control of both sources of iron in order to have any impact. They can rush 2 Workers to this other iron (assuming it isn't connected) and have a road built in no time. 2 NMs on top of one source of iron would be very hard to get off, especially if fortified. However, even more so than the PoA/Jagjef landing they will be able to spot us, and plop a Spearman on top of the iron. Then what?

Okay, assume that we get Jagjef on their southeastern iron and 2 NMs on their central iron? Then what?

Okay, they divert a few units and kill off Jagjef, the road is pillaged, then reconstructed and everything is back to normal. They have 1-2 units which have been delayed from other tasks by 2 turns. 2 Workers, road is rebuilt. They're without iron for, say, 6 or so turns. So no Swordsmen, just Warriors. Keep in mind how long they've been working on Polytheism... and how much gold they're likely stockpiling. With a fair treasury built up they could upgrade as many Warriors as they would have built in Swordsmen with an extra set of Warriors which they can upgrade later. As long as they have the gold, cutting their iron for a short period of time actually helps them more than it hurts them. Sure, a few units are delayed, but by how much, and how significant is it? It's not as though GCA is going to have a massive army to rush straight for our SoD. They'll be building units up and preparing to strike at the right moment. The right moment to strike won't be as soon as they can get the forces to the front, unless by some strange means they have an army twice our size and 1/3 of it is over in CFC while the other 2/3 is wandering arould Algalord.

No... I don't think that resource denial is going to work too well. If we had 4 NMs in each force and could be sure that the iron would be undefended in both locations, then it would be an excellent idea. We could hold onto both iron sources for 10 turns with 4 fortified NMs on each. However, that's not going to be the case. All they need is 1 iron hooked up to upgrade/build Swords.

Landing so close with such a small force is also a pretty bad idea. Sure, we could take out 6 units as they attack up our mountain. There's a very high % chance that 2 units could take out Jagjef. However, there stands strong probability that only a SINGLE unit on the turn we land could wipe out Jagjef. If that happens the whole plan is a wash.

If we're going to use Galleys to land then I would want to land in force. A force which would take down an equal number of units in a significant battle. 1 or 2 units is not likely to do much of anything. Sure, a couple of NMs could go around pillaging, but there's only so much damage they can do. Landing 10 units and capturing Balance of Power and marching east is a HUGE problem for GCA to deal with. That's what I would prefer to see.

	24-07-2003 09:53									#7
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I must agree with gentleman Trip:

A good plan has a minimal number of things that can go wrong and completely screw it up. It has a maximum number of things that can go right to guarentee success.

The currently proposed plan only has 1 way for everything to go right: We take all three iron sources.

It has at least six ways to go wrong- we fail to take/pillage any ONE iron source, or we are spotted incoming to any ONE iron source.

An evil plan, but respectfully, not the best possible one for us right now.

	24-07-2003 09:56									#8
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It does get the ol' mental wheels going again though.

Anything that gets me to write one of my "epic" posts is definitely worth a looksee.

	24-07-2003 09:59									#9
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I have to agree with Trip. It will be next to impossible to deny them Iron. Oue Galleys are providing excellent returns on their current courses, no need to change that.

	24-07-2003 11:04									#10
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We should have a flanking force to:

a) threaten cities we do not want to directly assault, and

b) guard against them crossing to the se penninsula with 4 or more swords to go pillaging through Tripoli and environs.

	24-07-2003 13:05									#11
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Have we considered the possibility of building several gallies simply for the purpose of spooking the enemy into sending forces somewhere we have no intention to attack yet... and keeping all of our forces TOGETHER stomping south?

Not that it necessarily works to do that, but just thinking out loud here...

As decoys go, it would be rather expensive and if you're going to put in that expense, might as well fill the gallies... but what if not?

The alternative seems to be to use the money you'd spend building 5-6 gallies and just build more swords and NM with it.

	24-07-2003 16:02									#12
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Your point about denying them iron if they are going to get it back helping them is a good one trip, and I was only proposing bringing princess back if we don't find anything which I consider fairly likely actually. The reason I consider it likely is the other continent seems to be in a period of peace and to be a bit more advanced than us. It seems reasonable that if that island was the other continent (or directly connected to it) that we would of been found by now. We'll never know till we try though.


EDIT: Oh and if its not obvious from this, I'm saying Senior Trip has convinced me too that the plan as proposed isn't a great idea. I still think we need to give them more to deal with at once than just a mad rush from the north though in order to give us a few extra turns to take cities without meeting the full resistance of their entire army. Coordinating the timing of our assault with a CFC assault of BoP would be one thing. Although I would imagine CDG would fortify BoP with 4 or 5 spearman and send all their swords our way in that event.

Last edited by wervdon on 24-07-2003 at 16:09

	24-07-2003 19:43									#13
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GCA likely has most of its forces tied up as offensive units, given their current situation. I doubt they'll be able to spend the luxury of having 5 Swords which can simply float around.

That having been said, I would love to see a major landing (as I've already pointed out ). A "decoy" force would be expensive and lack punch. As Arnie pointed out, for the cost we might as well bring a few fellows along for the ride. The problem comes in construction, since Incensity is building land units and Hispanica is tied up with a Temple for a long time...