24-07-2003 08:21									#1
	Should we allow GS to look at our save? Full PM-box? Change here!

This would mean giving GS our password to look at the game situation first hand without having to rlay tons of info back and forth, which may cause some errors in the way the situation should be handled from turn to turn.

There is absolutley nothing that letting them look at the save will do that we cannot do by telling them, except that erros in reporting will be ommited and it will be more timely which will speed up the game play.

There are no issues of cheating here whatsoever. It is entirely fair. We will, of course, play the turn ourselves. But this allows GS to have a first hand look at things.

	24-07-2003 08:27									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

No objection

	24-07-2003 09:01									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Objection. As I previously expressed to BigFree in chat when he brought this up yesterday, I don't feel comfortable doing this without first making sure that it's cool with some impartial moderator... the only one we have for the PTWDG is Trip... and I'm not sure everyone would respect Trip on that.

That said, NYE seems to have general respect from most people on issues like this, so perhaps because NYE would be the one accepting the save, fewer would object.

I'm just concerned that we make sure no-one BEYOND our team has grounds to object. Was there any rule established about this type of thing when the PTWDG started?

	24-07-2003 09:02									#4
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not to the best of my knowledge.

	24-07-2003 09:09									#5
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Please explain why this would be a problem for you Arnelos? How does GS or RP gain any advantages over any other team that we can not have through means of providing detailed screen shots? It only saves us time and effort. It speeds the game along. There's no conflict of interest here.

	24-07-2003 11:25									#6
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My concern is one that I cannot properly articulate, but I will try. I believe that when the other teams find out about it, that it will establish such an immense sharing of information and access that it would be tantamount to them writing our orders for us, and us merely performing them as instructed. It seems to go beyond the separation of teams and create one large team playing two civs.

Maybe it's just me. I just know that GoW and Lego and ND's players will all be bitter with us for quite some time if it came out, and if you know they'd be bitter about it, then there obviously must be something inately wrong with it. I just can't put my finger on it. It's like crossing the line somewhere.

While our joined alliance pushes the boundaries of diplomacy and competative game play, Full Access seems to cross the boundary to me. But maybe I'm just being too paranoid. I really don't want this game to degenerate into a lot of bitterness in the end.

--Togas

	24-07-2003 13:01									#7
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I think the point is this:

Having an agreement on paper which says that we will remain allied until the end of the game is one thing. Each civ is still controlled by sepereate groups of people in seperate forums with their own save files. TRUST is still an issue as we are, for all game purposes, still two seperate teams.

Actually sharing the save file crosses that boundary. It does significantly improve the possibilities for one team pulling off something on the other team, but the it is the fact that that possibility remains alive that makes the former case (where no saves are traded) valid... because we're forced to trust each other despite the fact that we CAN'T see each others' saves.

People will whine about our alliance, but it's perfectly VALID. If we start sharing save files, that's potentially invalid and makes proving that we are able to trust each other far less meaningful when the game is over.

	24-07-2003 13:15									#8
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Isn't there a rule that says you cannot doctor screen shots and or PM's/Correspondence with other teams? If there isn't, it would certainly go against the 'spirit' of the game to do so and it should not be allowed.

If this is the case, everything can be made avaialble to the other team in terms of providing proof of what is happening in a game for a team on any given turn. You can take screens of each city and screens of each stack of units (being right clicked on) and so forth, screen of all F1-11 screens, ect... Granted it's alot of screens to take, but it could be done, and thus my point is that it is tedious but doable. It is the tediousness of it I'm trying to get around. GS will not trust us more because we gave them access to our save. In fact, GS will only ever have access to the saves we send them. They cannot enter into any other turns except the ones we send them.

So, there's no information or "trust" that is passed along with the save that can't be passed along now without the save. There's no monkey business that can take place either. GS cannot send the turn to Vox.

	24-07-2003 22:03									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Communicating all datas is equivalent to giving the save, and this could be acceptable. The problem arises when we give a save to a team which has the final say on all important decisions; they could as well spare us the effort to play our turn, and even if we play the turn ourselves, they would dictate the orders. As Togas said, it would result in nothing else than a big team playing two civs. Adding that to the exploit of fake wars to exchange artillery or workers would be much to swallow ...

But we can also contend that when we authorized the diplomacy between humans to go farther than provided by the mechanics of the game, we implicitely opened the door to all possibilities materially feasible.


Ps : Togas, I am not sure that this post will make my attitude more appreciated, but you know well that if we spoke only when we are sure to be appreciated the amount of exchange would be seriously limited.

	25-07-2003 00:11									#10
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it's a pitty we cannot change the password later

	25-07-2003 00:45									#11
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I am squeamish about this as well. I trust that GS wouldn't cheat in any way or try to use the password again later, but still I don't think it's a good idea. After all, we can describe everything without letting them open the save.

	25-07-2003 03:50									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We can change the password, but it will require the Admin Password to do it, and someone to play the turn for us.

As for giving them our own password, NYE is the one with the admin password, so we really don't need to give him our password.

E_T

	25-07-2003 11:25									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If the fact that NYE is the Admin Password makes that any easier, it is another reason to think twice before doing it.