25-07-2003 02:23									#1
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quote: Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission.

So sayeth the sacred NAP. However...



Okay, see 2 CDG units here. A regular Immortal and a regular Spearman. Also a barb, but he's not important. Notice how there's no vet Immortals anywhere in sight. Jungle tiles cost 3 movement, so unless there's some mysterious 4-move Immortal lurking in the fog, no vet Immortals will appear, right?



Wrong!

One appears! But where is it from? Did the barbarian Warrior transform itself? No, I don't think it did that...

Perhaps could it be the same regular Immortal from last turn, only promoted?

Yes indeed! It is! But did it attack a GCA unit to get to vet status? No sir! If it had done that it would have used its 1 movement point. Which means it would either be in a tile where a GCA unit used to be, or in the same tile it was last turn if it had attacked a stacked GCA unit. But it's a vet, and it's 1 tile away from where it used to be. Guess what that means kids?! GCA attacked it where it stood last turn! And guess what again? That was inside our border!

But...

quote: Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission.

Oh dear GCA, our NAP is voided!

	25-07-2003 02:32									#2
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Veddy veddy eeenteresting!! To be absolutely sure though, what if we contact CDG to completely verify this?

Since we intend on breaking the NAP anyway in the moderately near future should we send evidence of this to UN to head off GCA's inevitable reaction when we attack them? Or should we just keep this in the back of our minds and bring it out when GCA whines about the NAP?

	25-07-2003 02:33									#3
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Couldn't GCA have taken the Spear, the Immortal moved 7 (it's in our territory), defeated a barb attack, and have been promoted?

(and I thought you were talking about the lack of activity on 'poly anway )

	25-07-2003 02:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Couldn't GCA have taken the Spear, the Immortal moved 7 (it's in our territory), defeated a barb attack, and have been promoted? (and I thought you were talking about the lack of activity on 'poly anway )

Hmmm... it's possible that the Immortal became a vet after attacking the barb, but that still begs the question of where did that Spearman go?

It was either disbanded or attacked and destroyed. Which definitely means we need to talk with CDG.

	25-07-2003 02:40									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Hmmm... it's possible that the Immortal became a vet after attacking the barb, but that still begs the question of where did that Spearman go? It was either disbanded or attacked and destroyed. Which definitely means we need to talk with CDG.

Yeah, that was why I thought we should verify with CDG about what happened before we call it a null NAP. The spearman could have been disbanded and immortal could have been attacked by the barb. It's entirely possible that GCA didn't invade our space by attacking CDG and we should make sure of that first.

	25-07-2003 05:13									#6
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We would have seen any GCA unit, it would be moving across a river, and in the jungle, so we should have seen it, unless GDC had attacked it before we had seen it.

I'm not certain, but you could be wrong, Trip.

E_T

	25-07-2003 05:26									#7
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We have to ask CDG before we can be 100% sure of anything.

	25-07-2003 11:00									#8
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quote: Originally posted by E_T We would have seen any GCA unit, it would be moving across a river, and in the jungle, so we should have seen it, unless GDC had attacked it before we had seen it. I'm not certain, but you could be wrong, Trip. E_T

There are roads that lead up to the point where CDG forces were originally located. They could have attacked along a road. If GCA did attack, which I'm still not certain they did, they would have had to cross a river and fight a fortified spearman in a jungle. Not a smart move. We can hope they lost a few units doing it.

	25-07-2003 17:20									#9
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Tactically speaking, the attack would have been pretty stupid - going over rivers to attack fortified spears in jungles is a lot like sticking your shlong into a chipper-shredder in the ancient era.

Strategically speaking, the attack would have shown both stupidity and arrogance - there's no reason to kill these units- the last GCA target could only be Chokepoint (although if they're not going to take Chokepoint, WHY are they up here? Warning, my friends.)

Mechanically speaking, the attack is actually only possible under one condition: the attacker MUST have been two or more horsemen, and that horsemen MUST have attacked with its first of two movement points. Otherwise we would see the attacker now- swords end their turn after an attack, and as Trip points out, the Immortal didn't kill anyone on the attack, only on the defense. A horse attacking from inside "New Elucidium" could have crossed the distance needed and made the attack in time to retreat, though.

However, this could NOT have been a barbarian attack on an Immortal and a disbanded unit- remember, the victorious barbarian would still have been in sight, and it is not.

So, our suspicions as to GCA's force makeup are correct- they have multiple horsemen, at least two of which attacked into our land last turn.... and one of them is still out there, right out of our line of sight.

Work it out; that's the only possible explanation. There's no "if" about it. Our NAP is broken.

	25-07-2003 18:13									#10
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Ummm... am I missing something? 'cause the promoted immortal does not look like that much of a mystery to me... keep in mind that the playing order is:

1) GCA
2) Firaxis
3) CDG
4) CGN
5) Apolyton
6) CFC
7) GWT
8) Grenouille
9) Barbarians

So what might have happened was that the barbarian moved E (6) on his "turn" and was on the next CDG turn killed by their immortals (that got promoted)...

The missing spear is more difficult to explain, but there still are possible explanations - could have been disbanded due to the lack of upkeep funds or could have tried to attack the barb warrior before the immortals did and lost... though I do agree that it is possible it was slain by GCA horses that withdrew back under the FoW (but I can hardly imagine GCA would risk so much for nothing).

But these pictures are too weak of an evidence to become our justification for breaking the NAP. Let's talk to CDG first - let's ask them simply: "Did you lose your spearman SW of Ciudo last turn?".

	25-07-2003 19:44									#11
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I agree with Vondrack - I haven't seen any substantial evidence that GCA is even involved.

	25-07-2003 23:17									#12
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vondrack's theory is much more reasonable. When in doubt, ask. At least no one has made an ass of us or himself yet about this (I think).

While GCA is bloodthirsty, why would they go out of their way to take out one spear? Makes no sense. They've won that war. A token skeletal defense is almost all that is required in the north to defend against CDG further.

A good theory from Trip, but this is more a case, IMHO, of seeing what you want to see. We want the NAP broken, so anything odd that happens we read too much into. Of course, I could be wrong, there could be a horde of CDG horsemen just beyond the horizon

	25-07-2003 23:18									#13
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Is our FAM trying to contact CDG regarding this? Please make this a priority.

	26-07-2003 00:27									#14
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As vondrack points out, the Spearmen was either disbanded or killed by a GCA Horsemen. We simply need ask GCA if they disbanded their unit in order to figure out the truth of the matter.


Dominae

	26-07-2003 02:36									#15
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It could of also died assaulting the barbarian as unlikely as that is, or succumbed to disease even (although ive never personally seen a unit in jungle tiles die to disease...ive heard it can happen).

	26-07-2003 03:19									#16
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It could not have been attacked by a GCA horse since that horse would still be stuck in our view range. Attacking into jungle would have consumed all of the horse's remaining movement for that turn. It would have ended up adjacent to Cuido.

	26-07-2003 03:46									#17
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It could not have been attacked by a GCA horse since that horse would still be stuck in our view range. Attacking into jungle would have consumed all of the horse's remaining movement for that turn. It would have ended up adjacent to Cuido.

GCA goes before CDG though. That means a GCA Horseman could have attacked and killed the Spear and then retreated. Then on CDG's turn they could have moved the Immortal and attacked the barb.

	26-07-2003 04:07									#18
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Ahh. True. Sorry.

	26-07-2003 04:31									#19
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Basically, we need CDG's input. We can asos ask GCA just what happened in a way that they might admit to attacking accross our border.

	28-07-2003 20:43									#20
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Did this issue get resolved?

	28-07-2003 21:43									#21
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Yesterday I talked with MR for about an hour and a half, and eventually he told me Kentonio did indeed disband the Spear.

	28-07-2003 21:52									#22
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I received email from Kentonio today that says "not sure about the spear right now." Email posted in the correspondence thread.

However, given the general lack of direction, organization, and information of CDG it seems very likely that they're just recklessly playing out the last few turns in a "don't care" mannor and anxiously looking to get removed from this disaster of a game.

--Togas

	29-07-2003 00:05									#23
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Damn! We have no "easy" out for the NAP then.

	29-07-2003 00:09									#24
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I can't say this is a suprise.

Looks like the NAP will be broken the old fashioned way.

	29-07-2003 04:06									#25
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My friends... its alive

	29-07-2003 04:09									#26
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So let's kill it.

	29-07-2003 04:14									#27
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Not yet, my friend, not yet.

	29-07-2003 04:15									#28
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Awww, you guys never let me do anything fun...

	29-07-2003 14:54									#29
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