25-07-2003 16:08									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Neither east bloc state forbade religion, not even the USSR, although the restrictions to the churches there may have been more severe than elsewhere. In East Germany, where I grew up, we had pretty strong Evangelic and Catholic communities, or where else do you think came all the priests from, who led the peaceful revolution in 89/90? Some of the church leaders whined about the "harsh restriction" of the churches though, seeing that less and less people went to the churches. After the reunification, they shut up very quick, seeing that the same shift towards atheism took place in West Germany too. It's a matter of education, I guess, not ideology.

But didn't Russia forbid religion in Russia itself?

	25-07-2003 16:28									#32
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No, it was restricted and officially unliked, but not forbidden. Russians are very religious people, especially the rural population. Lots of crosses and icons (very beautiful ones!). You can't take away the religion from these people. The only thing you can do, is not to support it.

Btw, the "Metropolit of Moscow and the whole Russia" (the Orthodoxal version of the Pope) all the time lived in Moscow.

	25-07-2003 16:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No, it was restricted and officially unliked, but not forbidden. Russians are very religious people, especially the rural population. Lots of crosses and icons (very beautiful ones!). You can't take away the religion from these people. The only thing you can do, is not to support it. Btw, the "Metropolit of Moscow and the whole Russia" (the Orthodoxal version of the Pope) all the time lived in Moscow.

Oh, thanks for the historical clarification. Very surprising

	25-07-2003 16:58									#34
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at this thread.

Last edited by VJ on 25-07-2003 at 17:04

	25-07-2003 18:38									#35
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America is quite silly. We hate Cuba! It's the land of Communism! Oppression! And led by a BAD BAD MAN! We want FREEDOM for the CUBAN PEOPLE! Because we are the protectors and spreaders of FREEDOM! But if they risk their life to come to our free state... HELL NO!! GO BACK TO CUBA YOU DAMN IMMIGRANTS! Frankly, I think these Cubans risking their lives to come to the US appreciate such freedoms much more than most Americans who take their freedom for granted.

	25-07-2003 18:42									#36
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You gotta admit, this was creative as hell - and the damn thing worked!

I say we keep 'em. The Pentagon could prolly use those guys.

-Arrian

	25-07-2003 19:01									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Of course, if they were fleeing the Batista regime, you'd welcome them with open arms. Or are you just against all refugees?

So how many of the cubans who get on these boats claim refugee status? Oh, but wait, if yu claim to be a political refugee you can;t very well immidately get on track to be a citizen....

Give me a break. political repression in Cuba is worse than in Haiti, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Burma, China, Lybia, so forth and so on, yet the only people in the world who get a free greencard if they make it to american shores (illegally) are the Cubans. And not many of them even try to prove themselves political refugees (I doubt most could ever prove it..NO, living in a dictatorship does not make you instantly a refugee, If so, Raul castro could get a rickety boat, make it to Maimi, become a permanent resident, then just go to mexico and back to Cuba...but I am sure he suffers a lot back home in Cuba...)

Those people saying how these Cubans should get in: Do all immigrants from lands with worse eocnomies than the US or places that are not democracies deserve an immidiate Green Card upon illgaly making it to the US? If NOT, why are the Cuabn's special?

	25-07-2003 19:32									#38
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quote: Those people saying how these Cubans should get in: Do all immigrants from lands with worse eocnomies than the US or places that are not democracies deserve an immidiate Green Card upon illgaly making it to the US?

If they manage to turn a 1951 chevy pickup into a functioning boat capable of 8mph through the Carribean Sea? Yes!

The fact that a 52 yr-old chevy was still running is amazing in its own right.

-Arrian

	26-07-2003 01:54									#39
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quote: Those people saying how these Cubans should get in: Do all immigrants from lands with worse economies than the US or places that are not democracies deserve an immidiate Green Card upon illegally making it to the US? If NOT, why are the Cuban's special?

quote: If they manage to turn a 1951 chevy pickup into a functioning boat capable of 8mph through the Carribean Sea? Yes! The fact that a 52 yr-old chevy was still running is amazing in its own right.

Asked, answered.

GeGap, that is the point I'm trying to drive home (pardon the pun). This is one of those case-by-case -type moments were you look at just the individual case to determine its outcome, not a general overview of like cases. I don't approve of illegal immigration, but I'm not willing to allow 12 very clever immigrants be sent back to their deaths in Cuba. Hell, Castro will probably dispatch them each personally with his favorite Uzi. In a more general stroke, illegal immigrants are deperate people: they are fleeing one place to another they believe they can find hope. Whatever their reasons, they should be offered some comfort before making a final decision on their status. If they floated across 90 miles of open water, stumbled blindly through the dark cold desert, or braved the rigors of illegal trafficing in an unventilated semi trailor...it should be remembered that they are Humans looking for a better life who have risked everything to do so. There is a reason they don't emmigrate in masses to Belize, Guatemala, Panama, Coast Rica, the Bahamas, Mexico etc.

The US should certainly tighten its borders, but for the people that survive the trip they should atleast get some consideration. Many USAmericans are pompous in their claims that "America is SO great and wealthy and advanced and better than everyone else because we're Americans" and yet are completely perplexed, even outraged, when people (who are not "Americans" and therefore dirty) try desperately to reach our soil. We claim to be the land of the free, the land of opportunity and all that jazz; so why all the anger towards illegal immigrants? As for illegal immigrants coming from much further away, same feelings apply. They're desperate, they seek USAmerican freedom, they brave very unsafe and dangerous conditions, and cross seemingly impenetrable border defences ( ) to get here. If they make it, good for them. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll become citizens, but atleast they won't be shone the door with little more than a cold, indifferent shrug of the shoulders.



They shouldn't be turned away so callously...I'm suprised you can't smell the hipocracy, GeGap. It stinks, but scuttling that 1951 Chevy and returning the 12 to the land of their pending visit to the firing squad isn't the way to fix it.



Slightly to the side, and again tongue-in-check, Reno holds an event called Hot August Nights during the month of...well, August. It's basically a month long classic auto show and related events. Had those 12 and their 1951 Chevy amphibipickup made it to US soil, they EASILY could have been included in next month's events. With Reno's large Hispanic population, they could have certainly found people willing to give them shelter, and event goers would have showered them with praise for ingenuity. They probably would have earned themselves monetary rewards that would have made it easier for them to assimilate into USAmerican society. God, the fulness of the decision to turn them away...

	26-07-2003 02:36									#40
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The likelyhood that they will be gunned down in Cuba is utterly negligable (which is why 3 men who hijacked a ferry getting sentenced to death caused a huge uproar: if killing in Cuba was so common, why would anyone have cared?)

No, I do not think making a car float makes you special in any way, and no, I do not think it deserves for instant green card status.

The Cubans risk the 90 miles bacause they KNOW they have a free greencard waiting just if they make it: I do not want tougher border enforcement. I myself am an immigrant, and one that came form a "terrible tyranny", if I go by the logic that 5 months after I immigrated to the US my country was "liberated" by the US army. And what I can say, as far as that goes, is that most people are apolitical: they live thier lives and keep out of politics (that is true in dmeocracies as well), so that the most important impetus for immigration is economic, but people leaving one state for better jobs and livelyhoods in other state do not count as refugees. I don;t know what insane image of Cuban you poeple have. It is a dictatorship and poor, but it is not nearly, nor has it ever been, an equal hellhole to many other spots in this hemisphere.

The people of Haiti have seen much worse, not only in thuggish dictatorships, but crushing poverty, poverty much worse than Cubas, and yet if some Haitia gets on a boat and sails 200 miles in por conditions risking thier lives to make it to the US, even if they make it on shore, back to Haiti they go. During the 1980's, when the Guatemalan army was partaking in its campaing of terror against the Indians in which at least 100,000 Indians were slaughtered (probably more than ten times the likely toll of ALL of Castro's victim in a country with less people), if a Guatemalan indian snuck in through jungles into mexico, then travelled the length of Mexico and then made an attempt at the border with the US, and was caught... back to the klling fields for them..


The speical treatment for Cubans is absurd: if they are political refugees, then apply for asylum when you come into custody of US officials. Same rules for everyone.

	26-07-2003 02:37									#41
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I have no problems with turning away illegal immigrants en masse but the shear creativeness of that group impressed the hell out of me. I more than likely would have let that group get to land.

	26-07-2003 02:38									#42
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extra points if the car still ran

	26-07-2003 02:38									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I have no problems with turning away illegal immigrants en masse but the shear creativeness of that group impressed the hell out of me. I more than likely would have let that group get to land.

So you still have an ounce of heart in you, huh?

	26-07-2003 02:41									#44
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I bet right Now Fidel is reading this, and will hire these guys to make an Edsel float, ready to start up right when it lands, and inside will be a crack team of Cuban infiltrators, and Fidel himself, and people will be so mistified by the act, they will wecome them all in with open arms and make Fidel governor of Florida..Yeah...

Give me a ****ing break.

	26-07-2003 02:43									#45
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Oh come on! I'd have said the samething if it was a Hatian car-boat.

	26-07-2003 02:44									#46
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They can;t afford 50 year old cars, and donkey don;t float well.

	26-07-2003 02:45									#47
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quote: We claim to be the land of the free, the land of opportunity and all that jazz; so why all the anger towards illegal immigrants?

Maybe because they are ****ing criminals and Americans don't like criminals who ignore our laws and just continue to do what ever the hell they feel like do. Maybe we think that such criminals are not worthy of becoming citizens and that we would rather see deserving law abiding people become citizens. Naw, that couldn't be it. Please continue your baseless leftist rant.

	26-07-2003 03:12									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Elden BS, Cuba is a communist country anyone with any religious beliefs will be persecuted, guaranteed no proof necessary.

Except for the fact that people with religious beliefs aren't persecuted there. While it's true that the Catholic Church was persecuted, it is no longer the case. Nor was it persecuted very heavily, but mostly because of it's association with the former murderous dictatorship and it's opposition to the current government. Since the Pope and Castro came to an agreement, the Church is no longer "persecuted."

No, the truth is the vast majority of people who leave Cuba do so for economic reasons. Why else would they brave the dangerous Florida Straights to come to the US when it is easier and safer to strike out for the Bahamas and Haiti, both of which are much closer and don't have the dangerous currents that you see in the Florida Straights.

	26-07-2003 03:19									#49
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If I was Castro, and I wanted to f*ck with the US immigration policy, I'd open the doors to people in Latin America, give them citizenship in Cuba, then "allow" them to escape to the US. Soon the US would have a horde of Latin Americans pouring in that it had to make citizens.

	26-07-2003 03:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Japher extra points if the car still ran

It was running just fine and the engine was attached to a propeller which provided the propulsion for the "ship." According to the Cubans on the truck, if they got to land they would have been able to drive it onto a beach and after taking off the pontoons, drive it on a road!

	26-07-2003 03:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Neither of them spotted it first - as for the speed, I find it hard to believe a home built amphib could make 8mph, let alone 8 knots, without a strong tail current or other simutus. C'mon, where's your sense of humour?

Depending on time of year and weather, currents in the Florida Strait can run in excess of four knots, and three plus isn't uncommon.

	26-07-2003 04:02									#52
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The US depends so heavily on Latin American labor in agriculture, construction, and services, don't we want more of these people?

The argument that cheap immigrant labor takes away jobs from existing Americans is flawed, as those jobs are already gone and taken by illegal immigrants. Legalizing those illegals would actually make them less competitive as companies wouldn't be able to hire them for fifty cents an hour.

	26-07-2003 04:56									#53
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GeGap et al, let's just agree to STRONGLY disagree.

And passing me off as a" leftist" was just rude. You know squat about my political leanings and opinions, so painting a label on me doesn't do much to swing my opinion in favor of your views...

	26-07-2003 05:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley The US depends so heavily on Latin American labor in agriculture, construction, and services, don't we want more of these people?

Cubans, typically, are far more educated than other Hispanics (in fact, Cuba's literacy rate exceeds that of the US), and have real job training. Most migrant labor in Florida is still performed by Mexicans and Central Americans. Cubans, as not merely legal immigrants, but citizens of the US, tend to get better jobs. On the other hand, la Calle Ocho is not a place an Anglo should be walking around at night, so they can't be all that successful.

The argument against the special treatment of Cubans isn't that they are Cubans or illegal immigrants, but rather that the get special treatment. On top of that, this special treatment leads to many unncessary deaths, as not everyone gets rescued when their leaky boats go down. Remember the whole mess around Elian, an only survivor. It happens a lot more than you know about. If we sent them back no matter waht, it would discourage a lot of others from trying to make the trip.

	26-07-2003 05:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cubans, typically, are far more educated than other Hispanics (in fact, Cuba's literacy rate exceeds that of the US), and have real job training. Most migrant labor in Florida is still performed by Mexicans and Central Americans. Cubans, as not merely legal immigrants, but citizens of the US, tend to get better jobs. On the other hand, la Calle Ocho is not a place an Anglo should be walking around at night, so they can't be all that successful. The argument against the special treatment of Cubans isn't that they are Cubans or illegal immigrants, but rather that the get special treatment. On top of that, this special treatment leads to many unncessary deaths, as not everyone gets rescued when their leaky boats go down. Remember the whole mess around Elian, an only survivor. It happens a lot more than you know about. If we sent them back no matter waht, it would discourage a lot of others from trying to make the trip.

coming to america was dangerous for lots of people. if they think its worth it, let em paddle that chevy! I'd run the hell away from castro too.

	26-07-2003 05:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon coming to america was dangerous for lots of people. if they think its worth it, let em paddle that chevy! I'd run the hell away from castro too.

Of course they think it's worth it. Instant citizenship, money, and help getting a job.

If the only reason you were trying to get away was to get away from Castro, wouldn't you take the closer, easier and safer trip to the Bahamas or to Haiti. I have a map fo the Caribbean on my wall above my computer. It's more than twice as far to Florida as it is to Haiti, and you don't have a current sucking you out into the Atlantic either. Grand Inagua Island in the Bahamas is about the same distance as Haiti. But of course, Haiti is an economic basket case and the Bahamas won't make you a citizen and help you get a job.

It's all about the jobs. It's the same reason why Mexicans kill themselves crossing the Sonora desert in Arizona, and Chinese pack themselves into containers to become slave laborers in the US. It's all about the Benjamins.

	26-07-2003 05:35									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course they think it's worth it. Instant citizenship, money, and help getting a job. If the only reason you were trying to get away was to get away from Castro, wouldn't you take the closer, easier and safer trip to the Bahamas or to Haiti. I have a map fo the Caribbean on my wall above my computer. It's more than twice as far to Florida as it is to Haiti, and you don't have a current sucking you out into the Atlantic either. Grand Inagua Island in the Bahamas is about the same distance as Haiti. But of course, Haiti is an economic basket case and the Bahamas won't make you a citizen and help you get a job. It's all about the jobs. It's the same reason why Mexicans kill themselves crossing the Sonora desert in Arizona, and Chinese pack themselves into containers to become slave laborers in the US. It's all about the Benjamins.

I think it could be safely said that its the relative pull of the US vs cuba. I wouldn't flee cuba into iraq. or flee cuba into pakistan. but when the United States sits outside ur front door and if u set foot on it u can go get a job an education and a future for ur children. or u can stay in cuba.

"honey get the paddle"

	26-07-2003 05:37									#58
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Have you ever considered the benefits of cutting quotes? You don't need to quote everything I wrote immediately after I wrote it, just to make a few comments.

	26-07-2003 05:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I think it could be safely said that its the relative pull of the US vs cuba.

The point is, if you are trying to escape oppression you will go anywhere. It's kinda like the Russian Jews who refused to leave the USSR for Israel, but would leave if they were allowed to go to the US. If you are being persecuted, you should just want out. If it's not bad enough that you'll go anywhere to escape, it's really not that bad.

Since you agreed it's about jobs, however, why even bring Castro into the argument? It's not like any of the Greater Antilles has anything to offer their citizens except jobs in the fields or the tourist industry . . . except for Cuba, that is. Well, you could agree to be a medical guinea pig in Puerto Rico or sew baseballs for a dollar a day in the Dominican Republic (which still has (illegal) slavery, btw. Course, Haiti doesn't even have those options.

	26-07-2003 17:23									#60
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Does Puerto Rico count as US soil, and do Cubans ever strike out for there?