26-07-2003 18:30									#61
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That truck is sooo cool. They deserve some points for that. I would buy them a beer in Key West.

	27-07-2003 01:21									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The point is, if you are trying to escape oppression you will go anywhere. It's kinda like the Russian Jews who refused to leave the USSR for Israel, but would leave if they were allowed to go to the US. If you are being persecuted, you should just want out. If it's not bad enough that you'll go anywhere to escape, it's really not that bad. Since you agreed it's about jobs, however, why even bring Castro into the argument? It's not like any of the Greater Antilles has anything to offer their citizens except jobs in the fields or the tourist industry . . . except for Cuba, that is. Well, you could agree to be a medical guinea pig in Puerto Rico or sew baseballs for a dollar a day in the Dominican Republic (which still has (illegal) slavery, btw. Course, Haiti doesn't even have those options.

I'm not sure the point u are trying to make. but to a lil digression of my own. I like immigration. almost all forms of immigration. and if I were in a third world pisshole I would certainly want to come to america. I'd jump on a boat, or a 51' chevy or run across a dessert or what have you.

Also political and economic freedom are intertwined more intimately than u make out. if a person has no political say the chance of them having any economic future flutters between almost none and extraordinarily small.

And finally it has been shown throughout history that ppl have a much larger capacity to put up w/ oppression than stern idealogical values would imply. u seem to imply that if u someone is being dicked over they will instantly revult or flee. but thats just not true.

	27-07-2003 02:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon Also political and economic freedom are intertwined more intimately than u make out. if a person has no political say the chance of them having any economic future flutters between almost none and extraordinarily small.

A proposition that the Asian Tigers or China easily disproves.

quote: And finally it has been shown throughout history that ppl have a much larger capacity to put up w/ oppression than stern idealogical values would imply. u seem to imply that if u someone is being dicked over they will instantly revult or flee. but thats just not true.

This iundermines your very arguement, since if people do NOT immidiately seek to flee dictatorships, then why do they leave?

	27-07-2003 02:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A proposition that the Asian Tigers or China easily disproves.

I would not be so sanguine here. Look at the problems that China is having with HK lately.

	27-07-2003 02:47									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A proposition that the Asian Tigers or China easily disproves. This iundermines your very arguement, since if people do NOT immidiately seek to flee dictatorships, then why do they leave?

last sentence needs to make more sense. "if ppl do not immediately seek to flee dictatorships, then why do they leave." maybe elaborate some.

	27-07-2003 04:26									#66
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Down with immigration barriers!

And yes, our immigration policy is pretty damn two-faced regarding Cubans. The US agency in Havana that handles asylum cases in fact complained that they couldn't find real political refugees (there were claims of harrassment, but that doesn't meet the standards the US supposedly applies to other states). On the other hand, if you look at a genuine political refugee crisis, say Haiti in '91 after the coup against Astrides, etc. etc., our gov't in its infinite benevolence decided to blockade all immigration from Haiti. So people were turned back to Haiti, only to be found hacked apart a little while later. The way we handle asylum cases is a total disgrace to human dignity.

	27-07-2003 05:00									#67
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon last sentence needs to make more sense. "if ppl do not immediately seek to flee dictatorships, then why do they leave." maybe elaborate some.

You said people have a large caacity to put up with oppresion, and I agree: and by saying that you undermine your own point that people are leaving Cuba for mainly political, as opposed to economic reasons.

Mexico is a dmeocracy, but alsmot 1 in 10 Mexicans in in the US: it is about jobs. If the Cubas were political refugees, they would ask for asylum and be refugees: instead they coem to get on a fast track for citizenship, and all the economic oppurtunitiues that entails, and as Che sai, the double standard is absurd: tens of millions of people aorudn the world would be willing to risk life and limb to get to the US if they were assured instant residence and likely citizenship: yet only the people of Cuba, who are not in any way the leaders in world suffering, get that ability, which should make it obvious that the only reason that policy exists is due to the political power of Cuban Exiles in Florida.

	27-07-2003 06:31									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You said people have a large caacity to put up with oppresion, and I agree: and by saying that you undermine your own point that people are leaving Cuba for mainly political, as opposed to economic reasons. Mexico is a dmeocracy, but alsmot 1 in 10 Mexicans in in the US: it is about jobs. If the Cubas were political refugees, they would ask for asylum and be refugees: instead they coem to get on a fast track for citizenship, and all the economic oppurtunitiues that entails, and as Che sai, the double standard is absurd: tens of millions of people aorudn the world would be willing to risk life and limb to get to the US if they were assured instant residence and likely citizenship: yet only the people of Cuba, who are not in any way the leaders in world suffering, get that ability, which should make it obvious that the only reason that policy exists is due to the political power of Cuban Exiles in Florida.

oh ok I get it. I never said they were leaving for mainly political reasons. chegitz just wanted an opponent so he picked me. and I rephrased the statement slightly. obviously that was a mistake as now I picked up u as well.