25-07-2003 18:39									#1
	How to deal better with WW? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This is my situation:
There are only two CIVS left which can really pose a threat to my victory: Japan and America.

To win the game I have to destroy Japan, which means a long difficult war.
I'm currently in Democracy so my question is if I should waste 12 (6 anrachy*2) turns and seitch to communisem (and damage production and scinece) or should I invest mouney in the luxery slider to keep the masses content?

	25-07-2003 18:45									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

hi ,

can you attach a save or a couple screenshots , otherwise we cant give a great deal of advice , .......

welcome to the club


have a great weekend

	25-07-2003 20:18									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I depends on several factors:

1) Have you been at war within the last 20 turns?
2) How many luxuries do you have?
3) Do you have happiness wonders (Sistine, Bach)?
4) Can you get Japan to declare war on you?
5) How long do you think this war will take?

If Japan is the target, and war with them will win you the game, sign a MPP with America.

-Arrian

	25-07-2003 21:14									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks for the advice, I'll add some information...to practice screenshot uploading.

The map:
I'm the big guy in the biggest continent (I just look powerful). Japan is dark green across the sea.
They may look small, but they are tough.
I've just finished a minor war with Japan (only in islands, no landing on the mainland) so I'm waiting 20 turns at least.
I started the minor war to take a rubber resource. but I believe they'll get rubber by trade (no one wants to sign embargoes against them). >>> So I know the war will be long.

An MPP with america is out of the question...I can win only if I prevent them from having SS resources, which can be found in Japan.
I will sign an MPP with china (on the Japanese continent).

I can only guess how much WW will effect me in this long war.

And question 2: Conquer (and maybe lose cities to culture filps) or Raze?

Thanks

Attachment: japan.gif
This has been downloaded 116 time(s).

	25-07-2003 21:19									#5
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Think in terms of a short sharp decapitation i.e. large army striking at many cities simultaneously. Take no prisoners just wipe em out.

	25-07-2003 21:41									#6
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I don't see how they could be in any position to be a threat. You look to be twice their size. Typically the AI will not do a good job of making parts for a ship and can be out produced. They tend to have few strong cities.
You should be able to make parts in as many cities as needed.

Anyway to presume your perspective is correct. I would not switch out of Demo, that could be fatal, if what you say is correct.
Use the slider, marketplaces, lux, comedians to keep the pop in line.
Raze their cities. This will allow you to ignore CF and hurt them at the same time. Bring a few settlers over to make some cities and slap an airport in one of them on the first turn.
Be sure to have a bunch of airports in your empire to send over reinforcements every turn.
You will have lots of captured workers to hook up anything needed as you go along.
It will not take long to cripple them as you will not have to garrison troops to pacify any captured cities.

	25-07-2003 22:13									#7
	Got spare money?

Not the expert, keep that in mind as you read this. But eyeballing the map, it looks like you have something like 40 cities, and Japan 10 -12 - of which 6 or 7 cities are on the coast favorable to your attack. You definitely have a massive production advantage (you have more production centers than the globe combined minus America, which I assume is the light blue). It seems to me, you could gear your entire peace time production toward building an overseas attack and landing fleet . And if you can manage to land massive, and artillery heavy, stacks outside of each coastal city, the AI will not be able to deal with them all.

Take out the coastal cities quickly, and you should have a fairly short war on your hands. I would think the AI will lose quite a bit of units from the interior cities trying to attack your stack - making those cities that much easier to take. With a big enough force, you may be able to wipe them out, or cripple them badly in short order. I wouldn't see the need to switch to Communism.

If you don't have one, I would also get an ROP and some trade deal going with America, it may do nothing but it might tip the scales in favor of them sitting on their hands when you attack.

One man's opinion.

	25-07-2003 23:01									#8
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If I were you I'd take out the coastal cities with marines (but then again, I modded them to 10.8). You could get a lot of them in one turn. Then sign military alliances against Japan with all the other civs. You could do this because of getting all those cities in one turn. Then make peace with Japan and watch all the other civs wipe each other out.

	25-07-2003 23:13									#9
	Got spare money?

One word: Marines.

This is a prime example of what they can do for you, allowing the attack to begin on this turn instead of next. I agree with vmxa that you should be able to outproduce the AI to a SS win, but simply on the presumption that war needs to happen anyway (doesn't it always? ), here goes. You say you're waiting 20 turns at least. I'd wait a little longer, especially if I have a tech lead. Wait long enough to research AW and MT. In a perfect world, you're looking at about 30 turns for research. Depending on your production capacity, I'd try to build at least 24 Marines, to let me hit three coastal cities simultaneously. More is nice, but not really necessary, since once your tanks are offloaded, you can consolidate your marine force and sail along the coast capturing cities during the same turns your tanks are prosecuting the main war. This will save you a turn of WW that could wind up being critical.

	25-07-2003 23:26									#10
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I'm with John here (partially 'cause I've been so into amphib attacks lately).

First, though, happiness. If you have one or two of the happiness GWs, the various happiness magnifiers, and 7-8 lux, you really should not have problem staying in democracy for a good long while.

Now, let's talk attack... for each coastal city, I'd suggest 2 transports, 8 Marines, 4 Infantry, and 4 Arty. You'll probably want 8 more Infantry per interior city.

Capture the coasts... I can;t really tell from the map, but if the Japs still have trade capabilities, enlist all the other AI civs in an alliance dogpile.

Let the Japs burn out their remaining troops attacking you, and then just wade in and smother'em. Don;t raze, but capture, heal, move on, and abandon.

Uh, let's see... that's 18*8+8*9= 216 units for your invading force. You may want to consider mobilization.

The whole move shouldn't take more than 5-6 turns, then you come out of mobilization and declare peace with any island Japs left. Depending on location, and whether you generate a GL for a Palace, you may want to consider keeping all the cities.

Have at'em!!!

	26-07-2003 02:06									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: One word: Marines.

From what I've learned on these boards recently, maybe two words: Marine Armies.

	26-07-2003 04:07									#12
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One thing Theseus and I both neglected to mention in your invsion fleet: a transport for each city filled with tanks/cavalry if you don't have them (bring two of cavs). If you can't land those tanks and push inland that same turn, you've lost a major benefit of marine assaults.

Arsenal, I'm obviously a big Mar. Army proponent, but I left them out for production considerations. If he can kick out a couple or three armies without pushing the invasion date back, do it. Otherwise, since the best defenders will be infantry, those four marines will be able to take him down most times with one, maybe two left over for the rifleman or pikeman coming up next. If the AI has MI, marine armies are a must.

	26-07-2003 07:15									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

This should be in the strategy forum I think.

I don't understand why one would raze all their cities. Why not just capture them? Wouldn't you save a lot of money? I personally like razing cities, but from my experience you end up doing better by just capturing the cities, put a ton of guys in them to quell resistors, then rush cultural improvements. If you really need to starve them with tax collectors, do it.

	26-07-2003 08:58									#14
	Tired of ads?

I assumed that this was before Motor Trans, but facing Infantry. I'd leave the Cavs at home on defense, and just bull through.

And as I said, I'd be likely to take a shot at keeping the cities, unless I wanted to adjust CP.

I have yet to produce Marine Armies or Army shells for Marines... something to look forward to.

	26-07-2003 09:30									#15
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The reason you may wish to raze cities is to allow your troops to sally forth and extend your conquests.
If you try to hold metros, it can be risky and will take a fair amount of time. Cities with 18 resisters are a ticky bomb.
I will take them and hold them if I am in no hurry. If I want to inflict max damage quickly, I will raze them and use a settler to create a new city. It is really not any less expensive. Consider you end up with 3-6 improvements intact, usually such useless things as Hospital, Aqua,Bank and the like. This city will not be all that productive, so why do I want to have a hospital?
I have to set most citizens on specialist for a long time as well. It could flip. If I make a new city, I can rush in a temple and let it coast along.

	26-07-2003 14:10									#16
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You're right, Theseus, I was bascially stuck in the mindset of my original post (waiting 30 or so turns until MT has been researched). I still contend that without MT, the marine assault is only about half as effective due to not being able to press it inland. On the other hand, all those Cavs are about to be obsolete, so why not throw them onto some infantry guns and see if you can take a city or two that way... at least to stay on the offensive until the tanks arrive .

	26-07-2003 20:54									#17
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Solomwi I would agree about using my Calvs at that point, if they are not going to be slaughtered. I do not want to take huge loses as they are usefull for pacification and grabbing a stray worker, or even finishing off a near dead unit.