27-07-2003 22:39									#61
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2nd degree murder.

Was the kid armed? No. He was running away, which is the point of coming downstairs with a gun (getting the burglar to stop burgling). The guy shot him in the back. The man's a murderer and should go to jail.

	27-07-2003 22:41									#62
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He's been to jail Boris. He gets released tomorrow.

	27-07-2003 22:45									#63
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Three days after the heroin junkie who robbed him gets released after serving five months of an eighteen month sentence. I don't like this Tony Martin guy, but the prison service is really determined to be crap to him.

	27-07-2003 22:46									#64
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Eighteen months should mean eighteen months.

What the **** is the point of a setence if they are always halved, thirded, etc..

	27-07-2003 22:49									#65
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I didn't even know it was possible for a sentence to be cut to even less than a third before I read this... but the geezer who decided he'd served his time is being made to explain his decision. He should get a lawyer to do it.

	27-07-2003 22:50									#66
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And people wonder why crime is going up.

	27-07-2003 22:51									#67
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quote: What the **** is the point of a setence if they are always halved, thirded, etc..

You don't think judges know that a sentance is going to be halved or thirded? Of course they do! And they adjust for that.

They may sentance someone to 18 months, but they KNOW he'll be out in 5 for good behavior.

	27-07-2003 22:57									#68
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Sentence for 5 then, and increase to 18 for bad behaviour. The sentence should be a minimum.

Then people can see the true punishment.

	28-07-2003 06:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Sentence for 5 then, and increase to 18 for bad behaviour. The sentence should be a minimum. Then people can see the true punishment.

The judge has a prerogative to set a minimum sentence.

Pity Martin wasn't black or Asian- we wouldn't hear a peep out of you. Can't recall you getting this worked up about people from ethnic minorities wrongly convicted and languishing in jail.

Still, they probably deserve it for having the temerity to live in the Land of the Great White Bigot.

	28-07-2003 06:49									#70
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Normal good working people not being able to afford healthcare isn't right.

If government waste and over regulation didn't run up the cost of health care then we wouldn't need a government owned health system. In the US 85%-90% have some sort of health coverage and the last 10%-15% are the people who either don't bother to work towards getting a job with coverage or else they don't bother to work because they're to busy drinking or doing drugs.

That doesn't sound like the "decent people" you were tal;king about. I'm sure the numbers would be similiar in the UK if the NHS wasn't around.

	28-07-2003 14:13									#71
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Here the people who use the health service most are pensioners, who are also amongst the poorest people around. How would they pay? They couldn't, so either we let all our grandparents die or we still have to pay for them, no benefit.

	28-07-2003 14:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Eighteen months should mean eighteen months. What the **** is the point of a setence if they are always halved, thirded, etc..

5 years should mean 5 years.

	28-07-2003 14:56									#73
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The point about the sentences is that the thieving scumbag who didn't get shot played the system, said he was sorry for dealing heroin in a convincing (to the parole board) way and got let out early. Tony Martin had to serve the full sentence the court gave him because he would not say he was sorry or that he was wrong to shoot the burglar.

Prison governors used to be able to add time to sentences for misbehaviour in prison but a recent court ruling (stupid human rights legislation again!) put a stop to that.

What seems to lie behind this is the application of the European convention on Human Rights to UK law. This annoys me for two reasons.

First, a convention intended to stop another european country going down the route the Nazis took Germany in the 1930's and meant to stop state abuse of power is now used to prevent ordinary citizens from protecting themselves (I don't agree entirely with what Tony Martin did but it is moving towards requiring a burglar to sign a written statement that you warned them before you kick the sh1t out of them).

Second, this human rights stuff forgets the responsibilities side of the equation and protecting the victims of crime. It seems to be applied so that the person who appears in court gets their rights asserted at the expense of the person they stole from or assaulted. (One of the rights in the European charter is about peaceful enjoyment of property IIRC)

	28-07-2003 15:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Tony Martin had to serve the full sentence the court gave him because he would not say he was sorry or that he was wrong to shoot the burglar.

No he didn't, he got 5 years and is out after 3, he would have got out earlier if he'd expressed some remorse though.

	28-07-2003 15:17									#75
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I stand corrected. It is still true that the sooner you say sorry and promise not to be a naughty boy again, the sooner you get out though.

	28-07-2003 15:23									#76
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The 5 years was already a reduced sentence from the original sentence because he had the conviction lowered from murder to manslaughter on appeal.

	28-07-2003 16:16									#77
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yes, but you get a third off your sentence automatically for good behaviour, so they kept him in as long as they could. the guy who got let out after 5 months for saying he's sorry has a record stretching back to 1984 with convictions for theft, burglary, various drug offences and assualt, but because he said he was sorry he gets let out after 5 months of an 18 month sentence.

edit: and i agree with cerebesIV about the european convention, the human rights act is an especially odious piece of legislation which does nothing except protect the 'rights' of criminals and illegal immigrants and enrich 'human rights' lawyers (which include the PMs wife...).

	28-07-2003 21:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Prison governors used to be able to add time to sentences for misbehaviour in prison but a recent court ruling (stupid human rights legislation again!) put a stop to that. What seems to lie behind this is the application of the European convention on Human Rights to UK law. This annoys me for two reasons. First, a convention intended to stop another european country going down the route the Nazis took Germany in the 1930's and meant to stop state abuse of power is now used to prevent ordinary citizens from protecting themselves (I don't agree entirely with what Tony Martin did but it is moving towards requiring a burglar to sign a written statement that you warned them before you kick the sh1t out of them). Second, this human rights stuff forgets the responsibilities side of the equation and protecting the victims of crime. It seems to be applied so that the person who appears in court gets their rights asserted at the expense of the person they stole from or assaulted. (One of the rights in the European charter is about peaceful enjoyment of property IIRC)

Personally speaking, I have no problem with restricting imprisonment to that allocated by the judicial system, rather than a prison governor acting as judge, jury and executioner. Criminal offences dealt with in prison can still be dealt with in the courts, after all.

If we are to enjoy a reputation as a nation that upholds the rule of law, it takes some odd twists of logic to hold that this is compatible with summary justice, by civil servants in the prison service, or by embittered farmers with illegally-possessed 12-bores.