26-07-2003 22:59									#1
	Tony Martin and stuff Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, so I dont really care about the case, but guy walks into mans house, man shoots intruder dead, gets done for murder/manslaughter.

IMO if I rob someones house, I should expect what is coming to me, whether that is a 12 gauge shell or not is another matter.

I think Martin went over the top, but if he was being attacked, or threat of attack, not just being burgled, then he should have had every right to kill in defence of his home. Perhaps in that case, he should have given him a bit of a kicking.

If we regard private property as a valid concept, then we must also afford ourselves the same right to defend it as with our own bodies, and our perogative to decide on the use of force according to its value to us. Of course, one cannot go mental with no justification, which is when the law steps in.

IMO justice is a completely different matter (the above only deals with defence), in this latter case, objectivity and non-punitive measures are preferable imo. No, really I'm not scitzophrenic!

	26-07-2003 23:03									#2
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Most of the Americans will probably say, of course he should shoot him. The law and attitude is totally different there though.

If he was really defending himself then that would be OK but I say chasing after unarmed 16 year old kid until you can corner them and shoot them in the back is wrong wherever they are.

	26-07-2003 23:04									#3
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True, thats why I said it was over the top. The kid should have been incapacitated and then arrested. If Martin was being attacked, then he had more reason to fire.

	26-07-2003 23:07									#4
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I think what has to be the law in such case is that he should say "stop or I'll shoot" and then shoot, if the burglar doesn't surrender. Here, you have to be threatened with deadly force to be allowed to shoot the burglar. Personally, I am not sure what's the right way with a large degree of certainty.

	26-07-2003 23:24									#6
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???

	26-07-2003 23:31									#7
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He's amazed that he agrees with you.

	26-07-2003 23:37									#8
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This thread appeared about six hours after I changed my sig.

	26-07-2003 23:59									#9
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Oh god!! One moment I'm a libertarian, the next, I'll be an ultraconservative!!

	27-07-2003 00:06									#10
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did the man die on the matin's property? i heard something about how in some US states, if the criminal makes it to the door, you can get tried for murder.

	27-07-2003 00:25									#11
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"If any person attempts to break open a house in the night-time, and shall be killed in such attempt, the slayer shall be acquitted and discharged."

That would be a real drag if you were a fireman kicking down the door. Or if it was your own house you were breaking into.

	27-07-2003 00:30									#12
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quote: did the man die on the matin's property?

Not entirely sure, but I assume that when being shot in the back by a shotgun, you dont live for very long.

	27-07-2003 01:12									#13
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I think he was as justified in killing him as he would have been if he had seen the burglar in town one day and shot him.

	27-07-2003 01:28									#14
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Martin didnt kill to protect himself, he killed to punish someone for breaking into his house. Private citizens are not allowed and should not be allowed to deal out their own punishment for crimes committed against them.

	27-07-2003 02:08									#15
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This Martin fellow deserves to be put in for murder, if all the posts here are correct. If the burgler sees you with a gun and is running away, you shouldn't be able to shoot him. You are in no physical danger at all.

Now, if he's running away with something he stole from you, I'm not sure what I'd say in that case. I guess he should be able to shoot to incapacitate him (like in the leg or something), but not to kill.

	27-07-2003 02:23									#16
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I think the manslaughter charge, which he was eventually convicted to (After appealing the murder verdict) was correct.

	27-07-2003 14:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp "If any person attempts to break open a house in the night-time, and shall be killed in such attempt, the slayer shall be acquitted and discharged." That would be a real drag if you were a fireman kicking down the door. Or if it was your own house you were breaking into.

i) I think I'd realise that I had called 999.

ii) To steal my own TV?

	27-07-2003 14:54									#18
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quote: If the burgler sees you with a gun and is running away, you shouldn't be able to shoot him.

Why not? You should at least be able to maim him.

	27-07-2003 15:01									#19
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I a robber enters your house are you going to take the risk that he's armed or that he might over power you in a struggle when the lives of your wife and children depend upon it? I will stand well back tell him to freeze and if the ****er tries to run or move in any way which I find to be suspecious then I'm going to do my best to kill him. End of story.

	27-07-2003 15:14									#20
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the thing is though, this guy was repeatedly burgled by these pikies, he wasn't just waiting with his shotgun on the off chance. the police couldn't ensure his safety (and say they can't after his release) so what was he supposed to do?

the guy shot two pikies who were trying to rob him (again), he should have been given a medal, not chucked in prision.

the most sickening thing is, that the one who survived has been given leave to sue (once he gets out of prision, for drug offences) tony martin for - get this, loss of earnings!?! martin may lose his house fighting the legal action and of course fred barris (sp?) will be on legal aid and so risks nothing. you've really got to love our justice system sometimes

	27-07-2003 15:15									#21
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Told you attitudes were different in the US.

	27-07-2003 15:18									#22
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quote: Told you attitudes were different in the US.

Damn right they are. Convicting that guy of murder is ridiculous.

	27-07-2003 15:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's i) I think I'd realise that I had called 999.

If, of course, it was you and not a neighbour who had called.

quote: ii) To steal my own TV?

Ever locked yourself out?

	27-07-2003 15:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Told you attitudes were different in the US. Damn right they are. Convicting that guy of murder is ridiculous.

He got it reduced to manslaughter and his sentence reduced to 5 years.

In the US I doubt a jury would convict him. Here they did.

	27-07-2003 15:26									#25
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quote: In the US I doubt a jury would convict him. Here they did.

You guys are weird, but oh well. C'est la vie.

	27-07-2003 15:31									#26
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quote: Ever locked yourself out?

Well let's see. Two scenarios.

1) There is someone else in the house. Ring the doorbell.

2) There isn't. No-one in the house to shoot my "breaking in".

quote: If, of course, it was you and not a neighbour who had called.

95% of homes have a smoke alarm. Who would be aware first, homeowner or neighbour?

	27-07-2003 15:34									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: In the US I doubt a jury would convict him. Here they did. You guys are weird, but oh well. C'est la vie.

No, it's you guys who are weird!

	27-07-2003 15:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Told you attitudes were different in the US.

Yep, we're smart enough to blame the criminal and not the victim.

	27-07-2003 15:39									#29
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We're smart enough to know the difference between reasonable and unreasonable force. Chances of a petty burglar having a gun are so tiny it's barely measurable.

	27-07-2003 15:42									#30
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quote: Chances of a petty burglar having a gun are so tiny it's barely measurable.

Not in America.