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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
As for "bases" that will be able to house Chinese subs: fine, which subs? |
How about these 66 subs?
Why don't you just give up, GePap? You're obviously out of your element in this discussion. |
So actually why do the Chinese need bases in the Indian Ocean for their nuclear subs? I might be wrong, but I thought nuke subs had the ability to operate anywhere in the world.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
So tell us Drake, what is this grand strategic plan? |
What, you guys expect me to write a ****ing dissertation for you? This isn't exactly a concept you can lay out briefly. Go read a book for god's sake. |
Well, you're such an expert about China's secret grand strategic plan that you must be able to provide us with the highlights.
Does the plan call for turning Japan into a client state? Or maybe China wants a military alliance with the Philippines? Or does the grand stategic plan involve taking over Australia? Or maybe Canada?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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Drake, neither article says that china has asked either Myanmar nor Pak for the right to station subs: they simply say the modification being made would make it possible. So you hacven't even shown proof, but Indian specualtions.
you were the first one to shoot your mouth of about me being out of my element, when you did not even take the time to examine that well over half of all thsoe 66 sus are either Romeos or updated Romeos; though hjow much you can update a 50 year desing is questionalbe. The best subs the Chinese have right now are the Kilo's (cause I am dubious about the capabilities of the locally made nuke subs), and the Indians have bought, or plan to buy just as many.
Interestingly enough, India seems much more aggresive in the naval spehre, having a small carrier now and waiting to buy a Russian one, they have and are getting more Kilos, and the got Tu-22 Backfire long range naval bombers, which would give them a greater range naval aircraft than the Chinese. Do the Indians have some immense geo-strategic plan?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Do the Indians have some immense geo-strategic plan? |
Of course they have a strategic plan, just like China.
BTW, you should be a little more subtle in setting up your strawmen. It's pretty obvious that I never claimed that China has an "immense" geo-strategic plan or that they are out to "conquer the world". Same thing goes for you, Tingkai. Bringing up absurd scenarios like China making Japan a client state or invading Canada reflects badly upon you, not me. |
Drake, you are arguing that China has a grand stategic plan, yet you refuse to say what that plan is. The logical conclusion is that you don't know what you're talking about. If you back up your claims with specific details about this grand strategic plan then great, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. I mean what's the point of you saying China has a grand strategic plan, but then saying you're not going to mention any details.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
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though I guess to be fair u've always shown animosity towards me no matter how inane my position is. |
animosity towards your position on korea, since i don't think it's well informed. there is no personal animosity, not to you. doesn't help that you call all of my posts "flames".
i was actually more offended that you thought i was suggesting that we continue to be blackmailed.
quote:
Well, you're such an expert about China's secret grand strategic plan that you must be able to provide us with the highlights. |
not an expert, but ==>
quote:
as for whether china has a plan or not: all the east asian countries have a plan. whether they come to fruition or not is a different matter, but... china's undeclared master plan is to bring back the epicenter of the world, politically, economically, and culturally, to china so that eastern learning can radiate outwards from the forbidden city. |
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I actually didn't make any suggestions. if u thot I did sorry. I didn't. u r dodging well. c'mon I wanna see a suggestion. it'll be fun. what should be done?
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
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and not give an answer. =[ |
my solution? engage them. tell them we're through with that ****, and if they want any more aid then they better damn well do it on our terms, or we'll let them starve. let them no we won't pull any punches: if they hit us with a nuke, we annihialate them--if they decide to test one of their nukes, test one of ours--in the pacific, near the northern side of the peninsula. they will see who they're messing with.
once they agree to disarm, twist the knife. force them to open up, force them to create more special economic zones. push them towards a temporary commonwealth with skorea, in which borders are open and thus trade and internal development will be spurred by primarily korean sources.
once nkorea is no longer in the stone age, eliminate the dear leader and his cronies from power. stalinism has no place on that peninsula. |
ok thats a start! so call their bluff and roll the dice. atleast its manly.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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Drakeky boy, little boy, before you call anyone an idiot, it would be nice for you to understand what a "fact" is.
Do you have proof of this Chinese plan? Is there some document, some pieec of sacred Chinese writing, some scroll of policy lying somewhere, some article in the Communist party manifesto, or the Consitution where this plan is laid out? If not, you have no way to prove anything, and to call it a fact is, well, wrong.
So, beside learning manners, learn basic definitions.
You have a theory about what China wants. It is a common theory. It is not a theory I think valid, for it assumes much about Politics that I think is absurd (like the notion of "states" having long term plans). Then there is the diffewrence between Hegemon and being secure. Now, being hegemo makes you secure, but you do not have to be hegemon to be so. China certainl wants to be the strong gest state among its neighbors. That does not euqate to some great geo-political plan, and China's relative non-importance to issues that do not affact neighbors or states close to being so is part of my evidence.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:29
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quote:
Oh, so now you're saying that China's plan is to make Japan its client state. Didn't you say something about how that is an absurb scenario? |
wrong! having china desire to acheive hegemony no more makes it want to have japan as a client state as america's hegemony makes canada, germany, britain, france, or italy its client state.
quote:
I actually didn't make any suggestions. if u thot I did sorry. I didn't. |
i'm actually referring to the numerous tiffs we had in the past, not this current one. i'm well aware you haven't proposed a plan since i pretty much destroyed your idea to give japan nukes and repeated denials that it would cause an east asian arms race.
quote:
Do you have proof of this Chinese plan? Is there some document, some pieec of sacred Chinese writing, some scroll of policy lying somewhere, some article in the Communist party manifesto, or the Consitution where this plan is laid out? If not, you have no way to prove anything, and to call it a fact is, well, wrong. |
if you're looking for that, you're sorely misguided and looking way in the wrong place. glance at china's behaviour, and you'll see inklings of its 'master plan'.
quote:
Then there is the diffewrence between Hegemon and being secure. Now, being hegemo makes you secure, but you do not have to be hegemon to be so. China certainl wants to be the strong gest state among its neighbors. That does not euqate to some great geo-political plan, and China's relative non-importance to issues that do not affact neighbors or states close to being so is part of my evidence. |
red china definitely subscribes to realism. apparently, they adore mearsheimer, gepap. you know as well as i do how convincing he can be when he's lecturing. that's what china is seeking, and granted, it's not a "long term plan" cooked up by a cabal and written down. it's a plan shown by their behaviour and actions, nothing more.
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LoneWolf
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We should be out ASAP. We have no national interest there, now that we won the Cold War. The SK's and the NK's deserve each other.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
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[q]I actually didn't make any suggestions. if u thot I did sorry. I didn't. |
i'm actually referring to the numerous tiffs we had in the past, not this current one. i'm well aware you haven't proposed a plan since i pretty much destroyed your idea to give japan nukes and repeated denials that it would cause an east asian arms race.
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boy u can't let things die. the point was to start an arms race. china has nukes and north korea is close. no1 else does. so basically the two countries we hate have em. and every country we don't mind(taiwan, japan, south korea). we've told to not get them.
but really plz for the luv of god don't drag me back into this. I let it die, u r the phillibuster of arguers.
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LoneWolf
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Qcubed-They are not already? And why is it our responsibility to prevent it?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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Chronological age Drake is not a guarantee of maturity, as your behavior shows.
See, let me explains something, specially about those FR pieces: they are annalysis articles. That means one author, using their opinions, prejudices one way or the other, and information they can get, put together a story about how they think the world is. Such a piece is NOT FACT, but theory. One is free to agree or disagree based on whether you support their opinions, prejudices, or the validity of their information.
Now, the use of a Liberal education is to gain the ability to make these annalysis on your own... maybe you should try that sometimes, instead of taking the ideas of others, treating them as fact, when they are not, and then insulting those that "gasp", dare to try to make their own ideas! (cause we know how dangeorus ones own ideas can be, no?)
As for your other comment: China is not even fully interested in all of Asia, specially far western Asia. China's sheer size does give it interests in most of the continent.
Q:
I actually have never been very convinced by mearshimer (call me more of a Wendt type), and his whole China lectures were the least convincing, so if the Chinese love that sort of thing, well.....
You say look at China's actions: exactly, which actions? China is a diplomatic midget for most of the world, they can;t figure out how to handle NK, they are trying to play all sides in South Asia, thier policy in Central asia is weak, they haven't made much noise about the South China sea recently (in various years), so I do fail to see any master plan, and the status of China's leadership at this point also makes the idea of some grand plan sort of ridiculous: the Chinese changed economic policy 180% just 30 years ago, and yet some great master plan was in place? At a minimum, what they seek is never to be humilitaed again: that does not count as a master plan, not in such a vague form.
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LoneWolf
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Well, our "stated policy" can be changed if it is no longer in our interests. I presume that that is what we are talking about.
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