28-07-2003 00:46									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Let's analyze the two forms of stealing a bit shall we? You have one form of stealing in which you physically remove a DVD from a store. That store is now out the cost they paid for the DVD. The owners, shareholders etc are affected by this. You are essentually stealing money from the pockets of the owners and shareholders. If you get a pirated movie you had no intention of buying in the first place, you are stealing from no one. No one is hurt. The key to this argument is that you had no intention of buying the DVD in the first place. Because if you do intend on buying the DVD, then you are taking potential money out of someone's pockets. This is how I am with my mp3's. I don't download mp3's in lieu of buying cd's. I still buy the cd's I want to- just bought Metallica's new album. What I do is download mp3's of all my cassettes that I don't plan on upgrading ( I just don't like them enough to buy the cd). I don't have the money to upgrade every single one of my cassette tapes to CD. So when I download say and old Dio tune, I am not taking away potential profits. I had no intention of ever buying Dio's Last in Line CD. Or I just download mp3's of these one hit wonders you hear on the radio. I have no intention of buying CD's from one hit wonders. But I like the song enough I want to hear it again. In the old days, I'd just tape it on a cassette from the radio. Now I don't have to do that.

I personally never intend on buying any music or movies ever again in my life.

solves that problem, who wants lunch?

	28-07-2003 01:37									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The RIAA's official excuse for CD price-fixing is advertising.

Do you ever see advertising for music? I don't.

However, on every goddamned commercial break there's ten or twenty ads for the next movie.

	28-07-2003 01:51									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Troll It is true and it will help guide you through life and help be an upright person.

* St Leo rolls eyes.

quote: Stealing is wrong and although it may not have the moral impact of murder or rape, it is still theft.

Fascinating. Now, could you please point out anything resembling copyrights or even the unrelated concepts of patents and trademarks in the Bible?

Oh my, Satan bless me, the Bible doesn't seem to realize that there is such a thing as intellectual "property".

In other words, there is nothing in your holy book that tells you not to share.

	28-07-2003 02:18									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dissident If you get a pirated movie you had no intention of buying in the first place, you are stealing from no one. No one is hurt.

Why would you pirate something that you don't intend on getting in the first place? I never understood that part of this arguement. Obviously you wanted it otherwise you wouldn't have pirated it.

	28-07-2003 04:06									#35
	Support Apolyton

DinoDoc--suppose I am searching for "hot XXX ****" on any file-sharing program of your choice. Suppose that in the results, there is a little-known song "Hot XXX" by a band called "****". That is one example of something you had no intention of actually buying.

Another one is where you want it, but it's so expensive that there's no way you're ever going to get it anyways, although this one is a little more dubious.

P2P is one of the best things for the music industry--it spreads music FAR quicker than any of their "advertising" can.

	28-07-2003 04:48									#36
	Suffering from ads?

Both movie and music industries have made so many enemies with both the political left and the political right that no one feels bad for them anymore.

There are fans of movie stars and popsingers. I've never seen one for a media company.

	28-07-2003 04:49									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell P2P is one of the best things for the music industry--it spreads music FAR quicker than any of their "advertising" can.

I thought we were talking about movies.

	28-07-2003 04:53									#38
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bah. It's generally the same form of theft, just with a different product.

Still, the same concept applies--had I been searching for "Hot XXX ****" and got a movie "Hot XXX" produced by "**** Productions" that I had never heard of - or went out of business - or the like, then that would be an example of piracy you hadn't intended on buying.

	28-07-2003 04:59									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

What's more common wrt movies? The situation you describe or people just downloading Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix, etc.?

	28-07-2003 06:14									#40
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Copyright infringement is copyright infringement is copyright infringement. It's not even an awkward phrase. Please don't inaccurately abbreviate it.

	28-07-2003 06:57									#41
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Oh my, Satan bless me, the Bible doesn't seem to realize that there is such a thing as intellectual "property".

For that matter, the law doesn't either, not in the United States and not in Canada. Copyright law expressly differentiates between property rights and copyrights. The two are not analogous, nor does interest in one have anything to do with interest in the other:

quote: US Copyright Law, Section 202 Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object; nor, in the absence of an agreement, does transfer of ownership of a copyright or of any exclusive rights under a copyright convey property rights in any material object.

(Canadian law very similar)

"Intellectual property" is something of a fudge-term that's come into play only over the last few years as big-money copyright holders attempt to strengthen their holds on their copyrighted works, and spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) with the general public about what rights they really have. "You're stealing our property" makes a much better PR line than "You're infringing our copyrights." Everyone knows that stealing property is a crime, but infringement of copyright is only a crime if it is not a fair use.

I read a superb commentary article on this a few weeks ago, but I don't even remember who hosted it now. It was a-link-from-a-link-from-a-link thing, and I never saved where I ended up.

	28-07-2003 07:11									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Something to consider - Hollywood product is the US's second largest export.

There's a lot of jobs in the US which depend on IP protection.

	28-07-2003 07:24									#43
	Support Apolyton

quote: What's more common wrt movies? The situation you describe or people just downloading Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix, etc.?

(1) I can get way out of my depth in an argument with you that will clearly be won by you
(2) I can start flinging names and cheap insults, a la Fez
(3) I can just post and be over with it

It's your choice

---

I saw the commercial the thread starter was talking about, and, man, does it suck. Those persons' livelyhoods are not going to be affected in any way by geeks downloading movies in their basements...

	28-07-2003 07:28									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What's the first largest: agriculture, cars, aircraft, or weapons?

	28-07-2003 07:29									#45
	Put an end to popups!

Ooh, 10 posts on weapons. Especially the kind that eventually end up in madman dictatorships twenty years later.

	28-07-2003 07:39									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That'd be a whole lot of twaddle.

You're right Dino-D, intellectual property is as you say, a lot of twaddle.

	28-07-2003 09:49									#47
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Smiley What's the first largest: agriculture, cars, aircraft, or weapons?

I think number one is aircraft: Boeing that sort of thing.

But I haven't checked for a while.