27-07-2003 12:15									#1
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post away, this is the year of our Lord!

	27-07-2003 14:32									#2
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Sorry I missed the previous turn.
Thanks for teh save.

I have a reco - this turn we heal, then next we move that wonderful army west with plans to take out that new little ND city, then march north.

Our old cities, ignore them for a bit. Better to take out ND core cities. And that we can do as they just left their whole flank exposed with our massicre of their little MI band of hethenistic bums.

All of course depends on where we next spot a pile of Ansars...

	27-07-2003 16:33									#3
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Our old cities, ignore them for a bit. Better to take out ND core cities. And that we can do as they just left their whole flank exposed with our massicre of their little MI band of hethenistic bums.

That looks very reasonable, since their production centers are their cities, not the ones they've just conquered from us. Of couse as GK says it all depends on where their forces will appear next turn.

	27-07-2003 19:57									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Sorry I missed the previous turn. Thanks for teh save. I have a reco - this turn we heal, then next we move that wonderful army west with plans to take out that new little ND city, then march north. Our old cities, ignore them for a bit. Better to take out ND core cities. And that we can do as they just left their whole flank exposed with our massicre of their little MI band of hethenistic bums. All of course depends on where we next spot a pile of Ansars...

I really like this plan... the only problems I forsee are:

1. They are now in their GA and may even be able to produce/rush some Ansars by the time we can reach into their territory.

2. GoW still has a large force of riders not far from Mavdad. Should ND allow them to use ND's road network, it's POSSIBLE that GoW could decimate any attack force we sent against ND.

3. Our lack of mobility on offense could be a killer. If we start moving north into ND territory at 1 tile per turn, Ansar warriors can easily turn around and overtake us, moving on roads (9 tiles per turn) or open territory (3 tiles per turn).

That said, this is certainly worth looking at. If we can raze even a single ND city before they catch and cut down our forces, it MIGHT be worth the loss of our force. We should definately discuss it with GS, at the least.

	27-07-2003 21:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Sorry I missed the previous turn. Thanks for teh save. I have a reco - this turn we heal, then next we move that wonderful army west with plans to take out that new little ND city, then march north. Our old cities, ignore them for a bit. Better to take out ND core cities. And that we can do as they just left their whole flank exposed with our massicre of their little MI band of hethenistic bums. All of course depends on where we next spot a pile of Ansars...

This is unwise. ND still has a good number of Ansars within reach of our capital. We must deal with them before marching north, or its game over for us.

	27-07-2003 23:40									#6
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The power of the Ansar is that they can strike us and run away. We will never be able to attack an Ansar unless it first attacks us and ends it's movement.

We do not have enough pikes to protect our stack of infantry and if we leave Zaragoza, the Ansar army in Leon could take Zaragoza.

I want to force them to come to us. I want to force them to attack us in our fortified cities with all of the defensive bonuses on our side.

We cannot march on them until we have Chivalry AND we have a stack of units so large not even their Ansars can dent it.

--Togas

	28-07-2003 02:35									#7
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I think marching against Leon is a good idea right now. It's only protected by Ansars, lets get to it before they get Pikes in there.

	28-07-2003 08:29									#8
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I will not march our troops into the open fields to be slaughtered by Ansars, who will then run away and hide elsewhere to heal. Even if we withstand their first assault and move into Leon, we will then be far too weak to protect Leon, and will have spread our forces too thin.

We DO NOT have the numbers to fight head to head with the Ansar warriors. It is suicide, and we would take more losses than the Arabs. With them in their GA and our eastern cities in GS protective custody, we must bide our time, for THEM to sacrifice more units than us, and force them to charge against our walls or fall into our traps. We fight only when it suits us and when the odds are in our favor. Because in a head to head fight with Ansars we will lose.

--Togas

	28-07-2003 09:38									#9
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Let me explain it better.

I'm assuming Leon has a max of 6 Ansars there.

If we march to Leon with 5 Pikes and 8 MI and 5 Cats we can withstand the assault by the Ansars losing 3-5 Pikes. The cats can then weaken them a bit and the MI's will attack. Will will not likey need more than 5 MI's to clear out Leon, including the retreating Ansars. Once the city belongs to us the remaining MI's can travel through the city, on a road and then attack any Ansars that retreated. If we were to trade an MI for an Ansar, we will win. Ansars cost 70 shields; MI's cost 40.

The next target would then be the 'temp' city they erected next to Zara; but that's another story for later

	28-07-2003 20:38									#10
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I like Libre's plan, Milord. We have little choice as it is. We stand far more of a chance to lose in open battle in Zaragossa than we do in a counter-offensive that throws them off guard. But, perhaps we should wait in Zaragossa until they've exhausted themselves in further attacks. The worst possibility, however, is that our wait gives them more time to bring up further troops.

If we do attack, we must hit Leon and take it, and pray to God it doesn't get razed. Then, we strike and destroy their little fortress and take out that base of power before it becomes their foot-hold.

Lord Toledo

	28-07-2003 21:57									#11
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If Leon has more than 6 Ansars ... 8, 10, or perhaps even 12+ due to reinforcments over these past few turns, our stack is toast, our catapults cannot safely retreat in one turn, and our war will be shortly over.

A lot depends on if the Arabs put Ansars in their galleys and if they have sent additional Ansars into Leon in the past 2 turns (plus this turn) that they have held it.

--Togas

	28-07-2003 22:59									#12
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That plan sounds good, I'd like to see Leon free of those infidels. But, how do we know that there are max 6 Ansars in Leon?. If we take that city we'll have to defend it, it's the same situation as before the gifting, unless we give it to GS...

	28-07-2003 23:06									#13
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That's true. It's not only about reconquering the city. It is also about keeping it. If we are not able to defend it yet then it's better to let them attack and be the one that risk their forces.

	29-07-2003 01:41									#14
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Attacking Leon at this stage would at least as foolish as ND sticking their MI's next to Zaragoza. The only attack plan i would consider is their "temp" city. We would be able to use the forest for protection. But not until the ansar stack is neutralized so that it cant effectively attack more of our cities.

	29-07-2003 02:56									#15
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Part of the problem is the lame MP battle system. Even if they do finally attack Zaragoza or Pamplona, we will not know how many Ansars they attacked with.

	29-07-2003 03:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Part of the problem is the lame MP battle system. Even if they do finally attack Zaragoza or Pamplona, we will not know how many Ansars they attacked with.

Thats as ridiculous as not being able to know where their troops have gone when the leave our line of sight. Something's got to give

	29-07-2003 03:53									#17
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That's a double edged sword: They don't know the true strength of our attacking forces, unless they can spy our cities...

Last edited by Fibrizzo on 29-07-2003 at 04:04

	29-07-2003 12:51									#18
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Hmm, maybe we can pay Vox or Lego to Spy Leon?

	29-07-2003 18:55									#19
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Should I contact Vox About this?
If the Lego ambassdor is busy I could do it too, I´ve been talking a lot to those green guys lately

	29-07-2003 23:53									#20
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If Vox even has enough gold to do so, I'd like to see it done.

Crumbs. Did anyone else notice that Shiber is refering openly to images posted on Togas's website?!

	30-07-2003 01:20									#21
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I think he was referring to the pictures of Togas at http://www.geocities.com/soho/lofts/1240/pictures.html. There are no links from Togas's main page (www.geocities.com/tom_ogas) to the Spain page so I doubt it will ever be discovered.

	30-07-2003 08:47									#22
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The save is here.

The good news - Zaragoza is still ours.

The bads news - it will most likely fall next turn. Also, Bilbao has been destroyed.

The brave defenders of Zaragoza must have fought a valiant fight.

The survivors:
3 MedInf (2/5, 3/4, 1/4)
1 Cat
3 Horseman (all 4/4)

Due SW of the city:
1 Pike (4/4)
2 MedInf (2/4, 3/4)
5 Ansars (1/5, 2/4, 2/4, 3/4, 3/4)

Due SW, W of the city:
2 Pikes (4/4, 4/4)
2 MedInf (4/4, 3/3)
2 Ansars (1/4, 1/4)

There is also what appears to be a reinforcement Ansar in their jungle fort city.

Since that is 8 Ansars that we can see, and I don't think ND could have gotten a slow unit into Leon yet - I think ND brought all they had to the fight, and left Leon empty. I'm assuming there is at least a couple of Ansars on those galleys, which would be a turn away from landing at Sevilla now.

I'd like our analysts to inspect the battle ground. What can we surmise about the battle that took place? How much do they know about the remaining forces in Zaragoza?

With the ND forces further north now, we can move an offensive force out of Pamplona northward. If they take Zaragoza, we can attack it in another 2 turns. The key is to limit their movement, which might mean retaking Leon. We can scout the city by moving the spear by Salamanca onto the mountain north of it. If they have left it open we have much more to discuss.

Of the top of my head, an option to consider may be to empty Zaragoza and have those units join a stack from Pamplona - muster our forces, as it were. This depends on how much damage we can really expect the remaining (weak and weakened) units in Zaragoza to do against a second attack.

If there are Ansars headed for Sevilla and the southern cities, they will almost certainly be lost. We do have an alternative though - they are all size 2 cities - we could build settlers and run. Some of the settlers and their escorts will be caught, but others may escape long enough for us to send aid. This would have to be decided this turn though.

Since the GoW invaders to the east have destroyed Bilbao, they will have taken the road we built (oops) straight to Toledo. That was 14 Riders last I counted - does GS have enough to stop that force next turn?

To my recollection, GS has:
3 Knights
3 MedInf
4 Cats
4 Pikes
+ any more Knights they can unload in their new port city they'll build next turn, which could just barely get to Toledo.

That's it for now, I have to turn in. I'm working at a client site tomorrow and won't be available until after dinner.

	30-07-2003 10:03									#23
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Shots of both the east and west fronts are posted on the Spain webpage.

Turn will be played tomorrow night, in chat.

--Togas

	30-07-2003 12:15									#24
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I have an idea. Looking at the save it looks like the forces at Zaragoza are lost in any case. So, why don't send a horse to Leon and see if it is unguarded and we can recapture it? We will prevent them from using the road tiles around Leon, and they won't know how big was the force that recaptured Leon. Maybe we could scare them!

Oh, and if we arrive and find that Leon is well guarded... Well, this horse was almost lost in any case. But I think it is an option worth to try.

I would also kill the damm scout. The less information they have the better for us.

	30-07-2003 12:21									#25
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Yes, this idea looks a lot like what was previously said in this thread I would be completely against sending a full force to attack Leon, but provided those forces are lost in any case, I think we can aford to lose a horse in the worst case and buy some time meanwhile.

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/War...mongers30ad.sav

	30-07-2003 18:34									#26
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Also a minor comment. I think it would be good to move the Pikes of the Iron Cross South and the Red Zealots N so they can protect each other.

	30-07-2003 21:17									#27
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Where are the Egyptians? How close to the coast are they? They had best draw near, as Toledo is about to burn. Damnable, this. There are over 60,000 Spanish souls in that city, and they will all die or be enslaved if the Egyptians don't get a move on.

Lord Toledo

	30-07-2003 21:25									#28
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Where are the Egyptians? How close to the coast are they? They had best draw near, as Toledo is about to burn. Damnable, this. There are over 60,000 Spanish souls in that city, and they will all die or be enslaved if the Egyptians don't get a move on. Lord Toledo

The bulk of the Egyptian forces already on land are (I believe) 2 tiles from Toledo by roads. They will be in the city and fortified before GoW can attack. The rest of the GS forces are on galleys 2-3 tiles offshore, but knights on the galleys can also be inside Toledo before GoW attacks because the temp city will be founded, GS will enter with their galleys and unload their knights, and the temp city is 6 tiles by roads to Toledo!

So the GS army is capable of being in position before the GoW army can attack the city. Best of all, GoW will have no idea how many troops are actually inside Toledo and will only be able to find out by attacking since both GoW and ND are now in-game at war with GS and cannot spend yet more money on intelligence (unless Lego helps them....).

So things are not as dire as they might seem on that front.

	30-07-2003 21:32									#29
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Thank God.

	30-07-2003 22:56									#30
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Time of tonights chat?