05-08-2003 12:44									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus War is fun in civ 3, but peace is too. Peace-play means a trading game, where you battle the other civs on the diplomacy screen. It can get a bit quiet in the late game if you're miles ahead, and that's where the diplowin comes in handy. I think that building a modest but more advanced, productive, and peaceful civ than the rivals is a worthy victory condition. For me, there is a point at which moving 200-odd units each turn while relentlessly munching up city after city loses some of its edge.

How right you are!

PEACENIKS OF ALL THE WORLD, UNITE !

	05-08-2003 22:52									#32
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Hah, we saw what you did in AU208 MS.
Peacenik indeed.

	05-08-2003 23:01									#33
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I find talk of a game without war to be amazing. The AI will not let me live a peaceful existence even if I wanted to. Which I do not. I find I would have to cave into demands all game long which is a completely unacceptable play style.

	06-08-2003 00:05									#34
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"I find talk of a game without war to be amazing. The AI will not let me live a peaceful existence even if I wanted to. Which I do not. I find I would have to cave into demands all game long which is a completely unacceptable play style."

there often seems to be one trouble-making civ, not even on my continent. on my last game, it was the babylonians. i saw them coming for me (on my own decent-sized island), so i tried to avoid it with a ROP. they declared war the next turn... in doing so, i had every other civ declare war on them, and this is the "allied" force moving north against them (the babylonian force is like top 4 units or so...)

Image here

	06-08-2003 12:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Hah, we saw what you did in AU208 MS. Peacenik indeed.

OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER FOR AU208:

My short police raids were a direct consquence of
a) gods' decision how to rule the world (meaning submit to Carthage),
b) the refusal of the other civs to embrace the gods' will,
c) the gall of the other civs' leaders not to kiss Hannibal feet every turn.

Therefore, I was left with no choice.

	06-08-2003 12:47									#36
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal I find talk of a game without war to be amazing. The AI will not let me live a peaceful existence even if I wanted to. Which I do not. I find I would have to cave into demands all game long which is a completely unacceptable play style.

AI demands?
From my experience, the AI usually demands either technology or gold if it 'feels' it has the upper hand (comparative military strenght) and if diplomatic relations are below 'polite'.
The best way to avoid those demands is to trade extensively maps, technologies, luxuries and resources.
If you have only a 1-2 techs lead, the AI won't ask for technologies (and you keep the AI broke in the process).
If you trade luxuries and resources, the AI won't ask for gold, because if you say 'no' and the AI goes to war, it loses them.
If the AI is 'polite' or 'gracious' with you, you will be seldom bothered.
Of course, you should keep a strong military as to be percieved as 'strong' in respect to other civs.
But this is not a must. I remember one of my epic games as France (emperor level) where I was on my little island all alone. I never went to war, got maybe 2 or 3 demands for 100 gold each, which I paid gladly, knowing I would get them back in my next tech trade, which happened (strangely) the same turn. Once I switched to Republic, my military was 0 (!) for the rest of the game.

Of course, if you don't want to live a peaceful existence, that's another story.

	06-08-2003 14:36									#37
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I haven't done the zero military thang yet, but I did download AU102 the other day...

MS is right, The Arsenal, you don't have to kiss George III's pinky ring for the whole game - only at the beginning, I find, when I'm rexing or getting in early buildings over military. 2 vet defenders per city and a mobile defense force of 6 horse-units and a few upgraded warriors usually dries up the threats. Of course, there are other reasons than weakness for the AI to attack but that's another story...

I haven't played peacenik for a while, but I did post a reasonably detailed Monarch pangea peace strat for the Egyptians ages ago, which I then adapted to win peacefully, and often without a shot being fired, with each of the original 16 tribes. I'll post the link when I find it.

btw, is that The Arsenal (the Highbury Gunners) or just a Arsenal?

	06-08-2003 20:32									#38
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mountain Sage. I've read several of your threads on approaching the game peacefully. Perhaps you can provide insight. Because I value peace in this regard: I want things to be quiet until I am ready to fight on my own terms.

I understand the concepts you spoke on in theory, but find they are harder to apply practically. I have a strong military at all points in the game. That is not the question. But with sixteen civs on a Huge map, and even using a fair number of workers to get my own territory up and running, I find that my trade routes to other civs and the establishment of embassies comes at a fairly leisurely pace out of necessity. Maybe this is a weakness in my game play, but I will not commit a worker (and unit to cover it) to build a road a great distance across the map to an AI capitol (often the closest AI cities are not yet interlinked by roadways) when I have cities of my own not yet connected or properly worked. So resource/lux trade comes slower.

Further, trade without the establishment of embassies is simply maps, techs or communications, and maps and communications (less so with techs) come at a price, each more outrageous than the last. Saying I do agree to these trades, they by definition will keep my coffers too low to build embassies early. So many of these deals are non-starters, which annoy civs. Yet no embassy, means annoyed civs.

So a typical scenario based upon my common habit of bee-lining for the GL: I get to Literature early, switch the pre-build to GL. One of the annoyed civs demands Literature. I not willing to give up the edge on that particular wonder, say "take a bath". I am at war. I do as much damage as I can quickly so I can sue my way out fast. Otherwise, I get dog piled by any number of civs who I have not established embassies with. War, war, war.

Cort Haus: The Arsenal.

	07-08-2003 16:15									#39
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I know perfectly well that with 16 civs, somebody will make demands on you from time to time. The whole point is then to have the fewer demands as possible. Some ways to achieve this:
1. If you beeline for Literature, and specially if you are commercial (Alphabet as free tech), make as few contacts as possible. Once you get Literature, make then your contacts and swap Literature for other techs. With your pre-built, you are almost guaranteed to get the GLibrary.
2. Don't keep more than a 2 techs lead until the beginning of the Modern Ages. This will bring you cash, keeps the other civs broke and gives you reputation.
3. Spend all your gold to open embassies with your neighbours first, and forget about the fartest and weakest civs. Who cares if the Vikings declare war on you if they are half a world away and are 5 techs behind?
4. Trade (almost) every turn. Even if it's an exchange of useless maps. Also, gift those useless maps.

Not specific enough? I know, but believe me, my PP strategies work very well most of the time up to Emperor. A PP victory (or a simple peaceful way of playing) is won only on the diplomatic screen.

Good luck.

	07-08-2003 22:26									#40
	Got spare money?

Thanks. Helpful in a general sense. This, is more or less approach I use to keep the peace when needed. That said, item 4 is not something that I've considered. Makes perfect sense however. The act of trading the map becomes more valuable than the map itself. I have a tendency to look at map trades as an instrument of gaining information, nothing more.

One note however: playing on a single land mass, it is nearly impossible to avoid contact with nearly every civ in a short period of time, and their demands. It is also difficult to establish embassies because the gold is not plainly there - it's not a lot of turns between Writing and Literature when the serious threats begin. And in my mind, being on a single land mass means always being prepared to repel at least two dog piling civs.

Again, however, I will give this useless map trading a spin and see if my neighbors don't fall in line a little better.

	07-08-2003 22:35									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage I know perfectly well that with 16 civs, somebody will make demands on you from time to time. The whole point is then to have the fewer demands as possible. Some ways to achieve this: 1. If you beeline for Literature, and specially if you are commercial (Alphabet as free tech), make as few contacts as possible. Once you get Literature, make then your contacts and swap Literature for other techs. With your pre-built, you are almost guaranteed to get the GLibrary. 2. Don't keep more than a 2 techs lead until the beginning of the Modern Ages. This will bring you cash, keeps the other civs broke and gives you reputation. 3. Spend all your gold to open embassies with your neighbours first, and forget about the fartest and weakest civs. Who cares if the Vikings declare war on you if they are half a world away and are 5 techs behind? 4. Trade (almost) every turn. Even if it's an exchange of useless maps. Also, gift those useless maps. Not specific enough? I know, but believe me, my PP strategies work very well most of the time up to Emperor. A PP victory (or a simple peaceful way of playing) is won only on the diplomatic screen. Good luck.

hi ,

well its always intresting to see what they do when you as the human player starts to demand , .....

even on the higher levels the AI tends upon first contact to give in , sometimes techs can be obtained this , just renegociate peace and put in some other things you want like map , money , worker , etc , .....

every worker you can buy or demand from the AI at the start is a great help to you as the human player

from time to time its possible to play a game without making war just simply cause the AI ignores you , and you just play it out till 2050 , .....

one thing that has to be looked at in C3C ( and hopefully this is done ) is the changing hands of cities from one and an other , .....

the AI never comes up with a city for a tech for example , .....

have a nice day

	08-08-2003 12:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal That said, item 4 is not something that I've considered. Makes perfect sense however. The act of trading the map becomes more valuable than the map itself. I have a tendency to look at map trades as an instrument of gaining information, nothing more.

I agree with you. The AI cannot make a difference between the gift of a useless map and a valuable one, but it 'scores' the number of times you gift them with someting.
Later on in the game, I usually alternate between maps and 1 gold, or both (I play mainly industrious and commercial civs, so I have too much gold anyway).

As for the demands on Literature, try the following: set up a very early pre-build. Once you get Literature, wait a couple of turns, then sell it to everybody. If you have a 10-15 turns lead thanks to your pre-build (at least up to Monarch), the AI won't be able to catch you up.
Bingo! No demands, gold/techs/maps for Literature.

If you 'know' that some civs will gang up on you anyway, build embassies with your closest neighbours first and have them declare war on your enemies.
Bingo! You just create a puffer zone and you weak your neighbours.