29-07-2003 01:39									#1
	Clipping the Celtic Wings Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps this thread will be defunct when Conquests is released, complete with new civ traits, but in the meantime...

...who here has problems with the Celts consistently becoming a large, and difficult to subdue, empire in your world, unless you're lucky enough to wipe them out in the early game? Raise your hands!

Well, I consistently find that if the Celts are allowed to unleash their swordsmen across whatever continent they're on, they end up taking a big chunk of it for themselves... this translates into more empire-building power for them, made easier I suppose by the religious trait...

...and, generally, the Celts end up with a very impressive army, at whatever stage in the game one must confront them.

I don't like to take the Celts on when they first build their Gaelic Swordsmen. After all, that's a whup-ass unit, and I prefer to leave the whup-ass can closed early in the game. I often invite the Celts into MAs against my targets (especially if the target is far from the Celtic core) just to keep the Celts off my back... but this often seems to backfire, if the Celts win victories and gain cities I covet.

So, then, I solicit any advice anyone can spare regarding the Celts, and keeping them in their proper place. Obviously, if you're lucky enough to start near them, you can put them down and keep them from iron. But if you're not, what do you do?

	29-07-2003 02:01									#2
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I have never found the celts to be that strong in my games and I reduced the shield cost of the gallic swordsman to 40.

Brennus is actually one of the more reasonable AI leaders to negotiate with. Keep your military up to strength and the celts will probably leave you alone.

They are strongest on pangaea maps so you could play continents or archipelago. Also turn cultural linking off as they don't do well against the mediterranean civs or any industrious civ.

	29-07-2003 02:27									#3
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I have been finding the exact opposite. I can't figure out anyway to keep the Celts in existence through the late Middle Ages, they always get wiped out.

	29-07-2003 02:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I have been finding the exact opposite. I can't figure out anyway to keep the Celts in existence through the late Middle Ages, they always get wiped out.

That's the way it is for me too. I haven't ever seen the Celts become a major player in SP games. It has the traits to go either way, and a good warlike UU, but it just seems like it gets caught in the middle and tries to be all things...succeeding at none.

As for advice on dealing with powerful Celts. As you stated you can practice resource denial if you're close to them. If you're not close to them then try to get some allies to declare war on them and fight your battle for you.

	29-07-2003 02:47									#5
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Hmmm, well, I feel a bit stupid posting about what I assumed was a common problem... I too have seen the Celts wiped out, generally early on, but far too often I've seen them grow to be big bad boys, along with Carthage.

In so far as encouraging neighbors to attack the Celts, I have practiced this tactic unsuccessfully as well.

My current predicament: I am playing as the Zulus, located in the center of my continent. To the Northwest are the Arabs (beyond them, the English), to the Northeast the Babylonians (beyond them, the French and Germans). To the south are the Spanish, and to the West, where they helped me divide the Ottoman Empire, the Celts. To their West are the tiny Vikings.

The Impi is an alright unit to deal with onrushing Gaelic swordsmen, but I'm in a war with the Arabs now, and am just beginning to put the infrastructure in place to wage long, costly wars.

	29-07-2003 03:13									#6
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The Celts are indeed a strong opponent if left unchecked and allowed to dominate their continent, I have just had a long and brutal war as Egypt fighting the Celts in a late game modern war.

One suggestion play as the Celts then you solve your problem.

	29-07-2003 07:09									#7
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The game I am playing now is the first time I recalled the Celts lasting into the modern age.
They only just now got into a war with me and that is the reason they are still here.
The Koreans were the first threat, then I chopped them some. It became Japan and then another unusal civ for me, the Greeks.
I am chopping them now. India and Germany are on an island together and have not been in the action.
Rome was the civ closest to me, so they were first out.

	29-07-2003 09:52									#8
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The only time the Celts frighten me is in the Iron Age. Playing on huge maps pretty much exclusively, though, I can usually hold off conflict until the GS isn't such a terror. At that point, I've never had much trouble taking them out at my leisure. They still put up a good fight, but not enough to put the outcome in doubt.

	29-07-2003 16:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus One suggestion play as the Celts then you solve your problem.

I love playing those orange-haired spear-slicers! If playing against them, I usually cosy up to them till their danger passes.

	31-07-2003 09:20									#10
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Future AU game: you are [the worst early/mid civ...tbd], crap land, missing resources, and are surrounded by the bad boys, who have it all. And, oh, btw, aggression is dialed up.

Have a nice day ....

	31-07-2003 11:41									#11
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*cough*AU 208*cough

	31-07-2003 19:02									#12
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Hey, AU 208 is a slightly different premise... besides, the Iroquois were nearby, and, despite their *****in' UU, I don't think they truly qualify as the "bad boys"...

	01-08-2003 04:57									#13
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Well it mets most of those criteria, not the surround, but you sure have no resources and the land at the start sucked.

	01-08-2003 19:12									#14
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Well, that is true.

BTW, I just took out the Celts in my most recent game... after a MA against the Arabs in which the Celts captured Najaf and two other cities, and I captured the rest, the Celts were polite enough to retreat all their Gaelic Swordsmen and Medival Infantry to those cities... I noticed that it is actually much more helpful to wait until the Celts have upgraded their GSs... sure, Med. Inf.s have 1 more point of offense, but they sure can't move as quick... it's easier to pick off a 4/2/1 unit than a 3/2/2 unit, that's for sure, and the AI upgraded 90% of their swordsmen.

I made sure, of course, that I took out the Celts before they had Chivalry. I think this helped a lot... their infrastructure is typically shoddy around this time, so cutting off their iron supply is easier... letting them get knights, and then having to face a large army of vet/elite knights, is a lot scarier than facing down a large army of vet/elite med. inf., IMO...

	02-08-2003 09:34									#15
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FWIW, I view the Celts as a dangerous early-game neighbor, but a helpful long-term AI. They might present a direct challenge early, but if I can avoid a costly war (as opposed to a "not costly" war) with them, they can do a lot of dirty work for me. I find the Celts often acquire a large empire early but are woefully inept at managing it later. If the Celts are distant and beat up on AI civs that otherwise have an inherent advantage, then Brennus is a good friend.

Catt

	02-08-2003 12:22									#16
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i often have problems with the celts, but normally they are wiped out when 12 AI civs all declair war on them.

i've noticed the aztecs and americans also become VERY powerful.
aztec seems expected, but the americans confuse me. as a civ they royally suck, but the AI does so well with them...

	02-08-2003 17:11									#17
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The Celts have never been a trouble to me. The Gallic Swordsman is a bit to expensive to be a truly great threat - Mounted Warriors or Immortals are much more scary.

	03-08-2003 00:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by zorbop but the americans confuse me. as a civ they royally suck, but the AI does so well with them...

The Americans are a good builder civ. Industrious is the best trait, and with Expansionist you can get a granary up v. quick. Add to that the chance of free settlers from huts and you can get a strong start.

The AI does OK with them because Industrious is the easiest trait for it to exploit.

	04-08-2003 19:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Catt FWIW, I view the Celts as a dangerous early-game neighbor, but a helpful long-term AI. They might present a direct challenge early, but if I can avoid a costly war (as opposed to a "not costly" war) with them, they can do a lot of dirty work for me. I find the Celts often acquire a large empire early but are woefully inept at managing it later. If the Celts are distant and beat up on AI civs that otherwise have an inherent advantage, then Brennus is a good friend. Catt

They can be managed, and Brennus can be a good friend, but I'd have to disagree slightly about the infrastructure point. The Celtic infrastructure is certainly sub-par, but compared to the German infrastructure around the same time, it's golden, and it's often effective enough by the late-medival/industrial age to be a problem to any invader (esp. if the Celts have 15-20 cities)

	05-08-2003 22:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth They can be managed, and Brennus can be a good friend, but I'd have to disagree slightly about the infrastructure point. The Celtic infrastructure is certainly sub-par, but compared to the German infrastructure around the same time, it's golden, and it's often effective enough by the late-medival/industrial age to be a problem to any invader (esp. if the Celts have 15-20 cities)

Well, I'm not sure what you mean specifically with respect to the infrastructure. In the majority of my games, if Brennus survives into the early industrial age, he tends to have been trimmed and is an insignificant runt civ, or he is a sprawling civ laden with a ton of somewhat outdated units but without the ability to compete on tech research. This tends to turn into a vicious cycle -- Brennus is more "powerful" than a more compact, more developed neighbor; Brennus is falling back in the tech/econ race; Brennus decides to beat up on the neighbor to even the playing field; the war is inconsequential in terms of Brennus catching up; but Brennus may slow down the more developed neighbor.

I just can't clearly remember a good instance where a powerful (military and econ) Celtic empire prospered well into the Industrial Age -- whereas I can clearly remember numerous such instances with a wide swath of the other civs.

Catt

	05-08-2003 23:01									#21
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Well, I'd have to admit it goes both ways. But whereas, I'm not so scared (just irritated) to see the French sizable, or the Germans, or pretty much any civ, I am scared to see the Celts sizable by this time - they tend to be behind in tech, and I tend to be able to defend myself against them, but ALL THOSE KNIGHTS, even if they're just knights, are STILL a major pain, and if the Celts are allowed to get Cavalry, they will build a zillion of 'em. And that is a major headache, no matter what state of their union.

And very often I have seen the Celts take advantage of their GS, beat up all their neighbors in the early-mid game, and come out as a power to be reckoned with by the industrial ages. If they don't border me, that is... I tried to swallow any civs they might have in mind whole.

Then again, I have limited experience to be sure.

	11-08-2003 09:23									#22
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I started playing with the Celts and I'm addicted. The religious trait has given me a very powerful culture, and I have a very well trained army. I have a bunch of Gallic Swordsmen and I completely wiped out all of the Iroquois League (every city razed every captured worker disbanded) with the loss of like 2 units. I am now beating up the Americans. I probably have the largest military in the world, and I started on a continent with a bunch of other civs, whereas many of the other civs have large islands to themselves. The problem is I am having a hard time keeping up with technology. Everyone except Babylon is a couple of techs ahead of me, and everyone is annoyed with me except for two other civs who are polite and one is furious with me (not including America).

	11-08-2003 10:38									#23
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johncmcleod post a save. Lets see why this is occurring.

	11-08-2003 21:30									#24
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I'll try again. It doesn't seem to be working. I click reply and it doesn't take me there.

	11-08-2003 21:36									#25
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OK, here it is. If anyone has any suggestions for this game I'd really appreciate it. I have unpatched PTW with some minor mods. The biggest one was I renamed some of the civs (Celts to Celtia, Mongols to Mongolia, etc.). I also redid the Iroquois. They are now the Iroquois League complete with real city names and Iroquois leaders. I also changed marines to 10.8 and made them a little bit more expensive. And, I will post my military history of Celtia (I copied Solomwi).

	11-08-2003 21:36									#26
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You have to select the "post reply" as oppose to the quick reply. Then you will have a browse option to attach files with. The file must be under the max size, so you may need to zip it if it is very large.
It must met the file type conventions. This should not be a problem for an early game sav file.

	11-08-2003 21:42									#27
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I figured out the problem. The save is on another computer without the internet. I put it on a disk and brought it to the one with the internet. Apparently the computer can't read it. I tried putting it on the hard drive but it wouldn't work. I'll post the military history and see if I can figure this out.

Attachment: j3history.doc
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).