29-07-2003 06:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let their parents deal with them. Then maybe their parents will get on their ass to get their act straight.

In my little village we have parents who don't give a f*ck what their kids get into.

	29-07-2003 06:10									#32
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quote: Let their parents deal with them. Then maybe their parents will get on their ass to get their act straight.

Should the kids suffer for the parents problems? I think these kids should be able to stay and maybe they turn into late bloomers and get away from the lives their parents lead.

quote: I would also like High Schools that specialized in certain areas, like Pure and Applied Sciences; History, Political Science, etc; or what not else.

I also disagree with this. You simply do not know enough at age 13, 15, or even (in some people) 17, what field you wish to go into. High school should remain general studies... you can pick in college.

	29-07-2003 06:11									#33
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quote: Either way, I see no reason why they should graduate.

One test, one day. Standardized tests are not indicative of overall education or academic performance. I'm not saying that they are particularly hard. Hell, my CSAP essays basically consisted of me telling the test makers to **** themselves, and I scored higher than everybody I know. The fact that some people aren't as eloquent as me (and I am not that eloquent), doesn't mean that they are necessarily any less intelligent than I am.

The bigger issue, as I see it, is that the state does not offer any viable alternative for students that are enrolled in what it deems 'failing shools'.

"Haha! Your school is failing."
"So what can I do?"
"We'll get back to you on that..."

Not acceptable.

	29-07-2003 06:11									#34
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quote: as for the creationism issue... why the hell not teach creationism? if the community whose tax dollars goes towards education wants creationism taught then it is their right to have creationism taught... i'm surprised you of all people, david, would be against tax payers getting what they want out of their money

Parts of the Constitution were written expressly to protect the minority and keep government from becoming church-related. Creationism is church-related and breaches the church-state barrier. That's just the first reason, buddy. Don't get the Apolyleft started.

quote: A couple of solutions. First of all, higher better teachers. Secondly, allow much more discussion. In general, philosophical issues don't have answers that are clear cut one way or another - that is, you can make arguments either way on many issues, and hearing all sides of the debate is valuable.

"Hire better teachers". I wish, but not one in every 100 adults in America is equipped to be a bias-free intelligent teacher. Much less one in twenty. Also, do most high school students even want to debate important issues? Apathy is the larger threat than bad teachers or bad lectures, and fixing it is another murky problem with murky solutions.

	29-07-2003 06:13									#35
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By the way, I should have said that just because someone is not as eloquent as me on a given day, does not mean they are any less intelligent.

	29-07-2003 06:14									#36
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quote: By the way, I should have said that just because someone is not as eloquent as me on a given day, does not mean they are any less intelligent.

Very true--in another broken record player style, it's a balance of measurability and restrictedness (aka PITA.)

	29-07-2003 06:15									#37
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quote: Apathy is the larger threat than bad teachers or bad lectures

Very true. I can't tell you how many classes we would have where the teacher would constantly ask questions (trying for some discussion) and get the same 3 people talking.

	29-07-2003 06:15									#38
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Oh, BAN religious schools, they are too biased with the sciences.

	29-07-2003 06:16									#39
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Kirnwaffen,

quote: One test, one day. Standardized tests are not indicative of overall education or academic performance

Yes, but someone who can't pass a standardized test is most likely stupid in the first place.

	29-07-2003 06:16									#40
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Parents are free in a way to send their child through whatever brainwashing they want, Odin. If they believe their child should become a model all-American good conservative moral True Christian citizen, then so be it.

	29-07-2003 06:16									#41
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quote: Oh, BAN religious schools, they are too biased with the sciences.

Yes, let's ban private organizations that we don't agree with. That sounds... familiar .

	29-07-2003 06:17									#42
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ban religious schools? what the hell kind of stupid position is this? i can't even count how many things are wrong with that statement

	29-07-2003 06:17									#43
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quote: Very true. I can't tell you how many classes we would have where the teacher would constantly ask questions (trying for some discussion) and get the same 3 people talking.

On the other hand, we can force kids to participate by simply basing the grade in a large part on class participation, at least for discussion heavy classes.

	29-07-2003 06:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Let their parents deal with them. Then maybe their parents will get on their ass to get their act straight. Should the kids suffer for the parents problems? I think these kids should be able to stay and maybe they turn into late bloomers and get away from the lives their parents lead.

They don't. They just screw it up for all the other students. You want to really fix the problem. Do it. Get these students out. Otherwise you only talk about things that aren't the real problems and the problem continues.

	29-07-2003 06:18									#45
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quote: Yes, but someone who can't pass a standardized test is most likely stupid in the first place.

Very true. Either their school failed them, their home environment failed them, or they are just quite simply an idiot. Then again, the major reason once again is apathy--who cares? Unfortunately, too many of the test takers don't, and it won't be an easy road into making them do.

	29-07-2003 06:18									#46
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Seperate the students who want to learn and those who don't.... Give public schools more flexibility when dealing with troublesome students, the way it is now anything short of bring a weapon into school and you can't get expelled from a public school here. Destroying school property, assaulting students, drugs...... apparently they can be fixed by giving the student a week long vacation.

	29-07-2003 06:19									#47
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David:

quote: On the other hand, we can force kids to participate by simply basing the grade in a large part on class participation, at least for discussion heavy classes.

what about people who are quiet or shy? why they got to suffer for their shyness?

	29-07-2003 06:19									#48
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Get schools to recognize that they are academic institutions and athletics and socializing is the job for youth groups and such. It's amazing how much crap is allowed to fly in U.S. schools.

Also have the government pay off the media to promote education in movies, TV shows, and music.

	29-07-2003 06:20									#49
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quote: Very true. Either their school failed them, their home environment failed them, or they are just quite simply an idiot.

Again, I suspect the latter in the VAST majority of cases. Standardized tests (in my experience) are insanely easy. I could've probably passed the TAAS graduation test (or whatever they called it) in junior high. And that's being generous (to the test, not to me).

	29-07-2003 06:20									#50
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quote: On the other hand, we can force kids to participate by simply basing the grade in a large part on class participation, at least for discussion heavy classes.

[broken record player one]bias bias bias bias bias ; How is class participation to be measured? Are we sure the teacher can even create possibilities for participation?

quote: They don't. They just screw it up for all the other students. You want to really fix the problem. Do it. Get these students out. Otherwise you only talk about things that aren't the real problems and the problem continues.

Public school is based on free education for all, ******* or not.

	29-07-2003 06:20									#51
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by the way... how many people in this thread actually attended a public school?

	29-07-2003 06:21									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer what about people who are quiet or shy? why they got to suffer for their shyness?

Those people need to get over that, or they're going to suffer later on in life even more. America ain't a good place for the shy.

	29-07-2003 06:21									#53
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quote: what about people who are quiet or shy? why they got to suffer for their shyness?

Well, I certainly would've appreciated, in retrospect, being forced to "come out of my shell", so to speak, by the nature of the education system.

On another note, though, we should CERTAINLY start to emphasis correct grammar in school.

	29-07-2003 06:22									#54
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quote: by the way... how many people in this thread actually attended a public school?

I'm sure several, but how is this relevant? Hell, I went to private and charter schools my whole pre-college life, and even these were too easy. I can only imagine how stupid my classes in a public school would have been.

	29-07-2003 06:24									#55
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quote: Seperate the students who want to learn and those who don't.... Give public schools more flexibility when dealing with troublesome students, the way it is now anything short of bring a weapon into school and you can't get expelled from a public school here. Destroying school property, assaulting students, drugs...... apparently they can be fixed by giving the student a week long vacation.

Bring out the record player! Even *******s have to learn to get a job. Eventually, they grow out of it. Even if they don't, it's too subjective to be effective.

quote: Get schools to recognize that they are academic institutions and athletics and socializing is the job for youth groups and such. It's amazing how much crap is allowed to fly in U.S. schools

This is one of the major things we can do, but athletics has already infiltrated the public schools enough that it means you have to overcome the "it helps them bond" crap. Not that many people on Apolyton would say that, but many people on Apolyton are several leagues above voters' heads.

quote: Also have the government pay off the media to promote education in movies, TV shows, and music.

The government relating with the media in ways other than regulation is simply just scary.

quote: Again, I suspect the latter in the VAST majority of cases. Standardized tests (in my experience) are insanely easy. I could've probably passed the TAAS graduation test (or whatever they called it) in junior high. And that's being generous (to the test, not to me).

I suspect apathy, but I'm too lazy to back it up.

	29-07-2003 06:24									#56
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I am a product of public education... My father now sits on the school board to help protect public schools from the mockery that is our state government.

I even went to public university...

	29-07-2003 06:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd On another note, though, we should CERTAINLY start to emphasis correct grammar in school.

Grammar is a waste of valuable education time in this day and age, and does even more damage as it makes people hate school, with a spillover to other subjects.

Yous all ain't need grammar perfect to let them people understand what you saying. Technical things like that belong in the math and sciences, not language.

	29-07-2003 06:26									#58
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quote: by the way... how many people in this thread actually attended a public school?

I did, do, and want to. Public school simply provides a much more diverse education than private school does, even if the public school does provide most of it shoddily.

	29-07-2003 06:27									#59
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quote: Grammar is a waste of valuable education time in this day and age, and does even more damage as it makes people hate school, with a spillover to other subjects. Yous all ain't need grammar perfect to let them people understand what you saying. Technical things like that belong in the math and sciences, not language.

You aren't serious, are you? If the goal is a well-educated and intelligent population, then good grammar is a must.

	29-07-2003 06:28									#60
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Grammar is important, but it shouldn't be focused on so severely. History is as much an important class (if not more) yet it seems to get that much less attention. (Especially on the standardised tests, although I believe that putting History as a major test section would flunk out 99% of America.)