29-07-2003 05:35									#1
	Schools in America: how to fix our education system. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think teachers should be given more leeway in running thier class, and teachers should get at least $40,000 per year. More emphasis must be put on science and Civics. I also think the emphasis on tests is too much. Science classes must be more fun for students, apathy in biology and geology, for example is why creationists have so much influence in the US. In history we need more emphasis on history outside the US.

What or your guys' (and gals') suggestions?

	29-07-2003 05:38									#2
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I know you won't like this Odin but the answer is school choice. Not letting the students choose the school but letting the schools choose the students. Schools are too burdened by students who make things hard for everyone.

Oh, and teachers do make about that much on average.

	29-07-2003 05:40									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh, and teachers do make about that much on average.

Not around here they do.

	29-07-2003 05:41									#4
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Less lecturing and more discussing in classrooms.

	29-07-2003 05:43									#5
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I know that the Clovis School District down in Fresno has a new school opening, or recently did, that offers a work program so that students can work and go to school at the same time in order to support their families... Other such institutions, that allow more choice for the student would be nice... This coulde include letting the school choose, as Kid suggests. Some kids WANT to learn, some gets only go because they HAVE to and it is just away to bye time between work, football, or vandilzing. Seperating these kids from one another would guarentee that those that want certain things will be given it...

Caveat: Not segregating based on race, creed, or sexual orientation though...

	29-07-2003 05:44									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Not around here they do.

I started out at 36k/year. I would have topped out at at over 60k/year. And don't forget about the killer benefits.

	29-07-2003 05:47									#7
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Obviously my suggestion is total privitization, but I don't care to debate whether or not that will improve the school system, because ultimately that isn't my concern.

Accordingly, what I feel would best improve our schools is a)allowing more discussion, rather than lecture, b)eliminating busy work, c)replacing busy work with more discussion, writing papers, and things of that nature, d)eliminate multiple choice tests, and in their place put essay tests, and e)fail ANYONE who can't cut it - keep them back until they CAN.

Our high school graduation rate would probably plummet, at least at first, but as new generations of kids came through, it would normalize, and we'd be left with a far better educated population, and a population much better suited to attend college.

	29-07-2003 05:48									#8
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I would also like High Schools that specialized in certain areas, like Pure and Applied Sciences; History, Political Science, etc; or what not else.

Kid, 25K around here is the average.

	29-07-2003 05:51									#9
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There is no answer as simple as "giving the teachers more leeway."

For example, Comrade Kidicious speaks of schools choosing kids. I assume that he means the kids who make things hard for everyone = regular ******* students...no one can say they didn't deal with them when they were in school. Well, unfortunately, the definition of "*******" is all too subjective. To one teacher, a child might be a model student, but to another, he might be the biggest ****er in the nation. The chance for bias is too great to let it happen...the nightmare spectre of a small school of perfect little all-Americans dumping the people they don't want on other schools would be one step closer. Conventional discipline as it stands today (detention halls, suspensions, etc.) work fairly well, and there are only a few regular *******s that slip through the cracks, no pun intended.

Likewise, Civics is the same burden--too much possibility for bias for anything other than bad to come out of it.

The emphasis on tests, while stressful to the students, is beneficial--due to the fact that curriculums and teachers differ everywhere, an "A" in Bubba and the School he Done Builted can not even be compared to an "A" in Well-Funded Large School Here. The more we can do to standardize the system, the more painful it is, but the more measurable it is. It's all about choosing the right balance. (And once again bias gets in...pushing for Creationism to be listed in Bubba Elementary textbooks might not be a lot, but pushing for it to be in Large Geographical Region Here textbooks would be disastrous on many more orders of magnitude.)

"Science classes must be more fun" No-brainer. Now, tell us HOW, and you're on to something there. (But I do agree that Creationism should NOT be taught in US schools. Creationism is merely a theory. Evolution is backed up by scientific fact. If you want to brainwash your kids into your own religion, send them to a private school, force them to worship God every minute of their childhood, or home-school them. I will not discuss it more, because I want to get to my Civ3athon.)

The more-of-world history suggestion is good, but are you aware that most schools are having trouble just cramming down history in ONE nation down kids' throats? Apart from dramatically diluting world history (bad) or multiplying the amount of time spent in History classes, there is simply nothing to be done.

	29-07-2003 05:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Accordingly, what I feel would best improve our schools is a)allowing more discussion, rather than lecture, b)eliminating busy work, c)replacing busy work with more discussion, writing papers, and things of that nature, d)eliminate multiple choice tests, and in their place put essay tests, and e)fail ANYONE who can't cut it - keep them back until they CAN. Our high school graduation rate would probably plummet, at least at first, but as new generations of kids came through, it would normalize, and we'd be left with a far better educated population, and a population much better suited to attend college.

Oh, we also need FREE COLLEGE, so students can concentrate on thier studies instead of working so much they get hardly any sleep.

I prefer discussion over lectures. Lectures are BORING.

	29-07-2003 05:52									#11
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I would also like a much greater emphasis on philosophy - teach people how to think. We can get rid of **** like forcing people to do science projects, or making people take art classes. Not that this stuff isn't valuable, it just isn't valuable unless you are interested in it. If I'm forced to do a science project, I'm gonna half-ass it because I hate it - it's a waste of my time.

	29-07-2003 05:53									#12
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One thing we can also scrap is the massive emphasis some schools place on athletics. Football? Sure, it's great, I suppose, but let's not prioritize it very highly.

quote: Oh, we also need FREE COLLEGE, so students can concentrate on thier studies instead of working so much they get hardly any sleep.

Sorry, I happen to feel that working your way through school is extremely valuable. Yes, before anyone brings it up, most of my school is paid for through institutional scholarships and grants, but I also work full time and support myself in terms of my apartment and other expenses.

	29-07-2003 05:54									#13
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That's why speciality schools would be best...

Free College? - Get a Loan you greedy money grubber... I don't want to pay for everything, sometimes you need to fork the bill for what it is you are receiving.

	29-07-2003 05:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell There is no answer as simple as "giving the teachers more leeway." For example, Comrade Kidicious speaks of schools choosing kids. I assume that he means the kids who make things hard for everyone = regular ******* students...no one can say they didn't deal with them when they were in school. Well, unfortunately, the definition of "*******" is all too subjective. To one teacher, a child might be a model student, but to another, he might be the biggest ****er in the nation. The chance for bias is too great to let it happen...the nightmare spectre of a small school of perfect little all-Americans dumping the people they don't want on other schools would be one step closer. Conventional discipline as it stands today (detention halls, suspensions, etc.) work fairly well, and there are only a few regular *******s that slip through the cracks, no pun intended.

I disagree. Why should kids even go to detention hall? The only punishment for not going is suspension, and suspension is just a vacation.

	29-07-2003 05:56									#15
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quote: (But I do agree that Creationism should NOT be taught in US schools. Creationism is merely a theory. Evolution is backed up by scientific fact. If you want to brainwash your kids into your own religion, send them to a private school, force them to worship God every minute of their childhood, or home-school them. I will not discuss it more, because I want to get to my Civ3athon.)

I agree. Once creationism has valid scientific backing, it should be presented as an alternate theory. Until such time, it should not be taught in science classes. This simply makes good sense - we aren't attending "Let's present every half-assed theory imaginable to make the fundies happy" Class, we're attending Science Class.

	29-07-2003 05:56									#16
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So, don't make school manditory...

	29-07-2003 05:56									#17
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I think there needs to be more flexibility in the system.

Far too much emphasis is placed on milking every single minute of every day for what it's worth. **** that. I'd rather see students go to school for an extra twenty days or more out of the year if it means that they can relax just a little at the school. And who cares where the class is being taught? If a teacher feels like it would be better to hold a class outside for the day, or to take the kids on a field trip, the administration damn well ought to bend over backwards to make it happen, rather than having the same reaction in the opposite direction.

Less testing. I wish I could calculate the number of days I lost because a teacher felt that he/she needed to waste time going over the format of some ridiculous state mandated test. In trying to institute school accountability, the state of Colorado has created a culture in which nothing matters if you can pass one test on one day. Bullshit. What's worse is that they've failed to do anything to back it up. Great, every newspaper in the state shows the schools that passed and the schools that failed, but they don't offer any sort of option for those that are stuck in a failing school. It's not like they can just pack up their bags and leave. By the way, just 14% of high school sophomores passed the math section the first year it was given. To me, that says more about the test than the people taking it.

	29-07-2003 05:57									#18
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quote: Less lecturing and more discussing in classrooms.

Undeniably the one best thing we can do...but again, too much moderation required for it to return on the investment. A conservative (liberal) blowhole teacher would ruin the whole concept, and at worst send the kids out with a whole new incorrect slant on life. Also, I can't think of that many students who actively want to discuss, unfortunately.

And there is no need to eliminate multiple-choice tests. I'm willing to bet some of the greatest engineer or engineer-types in their field couldn't write an essay worth ****, but can still keep up a large computer network / telephone system / whatever have you.

	29-07-2003 05:57									#19
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I also think that we should stop punishing kids for not going to school. That should simply be between them and their parents. Schools are there to teach academics, not to teach responsibility, and schools certainly don't exist to punish kids for being stupid.

Responsibility and punishment are what parents are for.

	29-07-2003 05:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sorry, I happen to feel that working your way through school is extremely valuable. Yes, before anyone brings it up, most of my school is paid for through institutional scholarships and grants, but I also work full time and support myself in terms of my apartment and other expenses.

Work is good, but it shouldn't get in the way of your studies. I have relatives of mine that say they have hardly any time to sleep. 4hrs of work MAX for college students.

I agree, there is so much emphasis on sports it is pathetic.

	29-07-2003 06:00									#21
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Kirnwaffen,

Here's the problem with standardized tests. They are ridiculously easy. I took the TAAS test in high school (Texas Standardized Test), and in the entire test, I missed something like two questions - 2 out of a couple hundred. They just are not challenging. Anyone who fails one is either honest to God STUPID, or just doesn't care. Either way, I see no reason why they should graduate.

Now, on the other side of the argument, I feel that we should eliminate standardized tests, because I don't feel as though the State should interfere in education. Testing should be the responsibility of the school, not the state - but this goes back into privitization, which is not an area I want to get into on this thread.

	29-07-2003 06:00									#22
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quote: Less lecturing and more discussing in classrooms.

Yes, that should be done... but we shouldn't go TOO far. The reason why discussion works better in college is because the students have the groundwork set for them first.

There should be discussions, but on a strict leash. The teacher should make sure that people don't say something totally wrong, and in some classes we maybe shouldn't have lecture at all (like in biology where you could have a Creationist kid try to tell everyone they are going to Hell ).

It's a tough balance on what to do with discussion and what grade level would it be good to start it.

quote: Not letting the students choose the school but letting the schools choose the students.

The problem with this is that in 'public' schools every child should have the chance to learn. I don't support public schools kicking too many kids out... because then where will they go to get an education? We can't just say **** 'em!

quote: Oh, we also need FREE COLLEGE

I agree.. or at least more grants for college. A college education is quickly becoming what a high school graduation was 30 years ago. You need it for most jobs.


mrmitchell is correct though... there are no easy solutions. If there were, we wouldn't be having these discussions here today. I mean it is obvious, looking at this site, that public education can turn out many, extrodinarily bright individuals, but it also can turn out those that can't read well enough to be productive and those that leave without learning much at all.

	29-07-2003 06:01									#23
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less emphasis on sports, more emphasis on cheerleading

	29-07-2003 06:01									#24
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David:

how many eighth graders would go to school willingly if they weren't forced to?

	29-07-2003 06:03									#25
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as for the creationism issue... why the hell not teach creationism? if the community whose tax dollars goes towards education wants creationism taught then it is their right to have creationism taught... i'm surprised you of all people, david, would be against tax payers getting what they want out of their money

	29-07-2003 06:03									#26
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Odin,

quote: Work is good, but it shouldn't get in the way of your studies. I have relatives of mine that say they have hardly any time to sleep. 4hrs of work MAX for college students.

I still disagree. I manage college courses and 40 hours/week working just fine. Sure, I'm a bit tired, but so what?

Imran,

quote: Yes, that should be done... but we shouldn't go TOO far. The reason why discussion works better in college is because the students have the groundwork set for them first. There should be discussions, but on a strict leash. The teacher should make sure that people don't say something totally wrong, and in some classes we maybe shouldn't have lecture at all (like in biology where you could have a Creationist kid try to tell everyone they are going to Hel

I agree with this. I feel that discussion should be balanced with lecture, and obviously limited to courses such as Civics/Government, History, Philosophy (which should DEFINITELY be a required course, IMO) and the like, and that the discussion should certainly be moderated.

However, I think that some of the ideas presented here for reforming the schools would eventually lead to much more knowledgeable students, and, as such, less need for strictly moderated discussions. By the way, this is why I want high school students to write a lot more papers. Writing is a valuable skill, and the research involved with it is good for having background knowledge in the subject.

	29-07-2003 06:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Not letting the students choose the school but letting the schools choose the students. The problem with this is that in 'public' schools every child should have the chance to learn. I don't support public schools kicking too many kids out... because then where will they go to get an education? We can't just say **** 'em!

Let their parents deal with them. Then maybe their parents will get on their ass to get their act straight.

	29-07-2003 06:04									#28
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quote: I would also like a much greater emphasis on philosophy - teach people how to think.

I'm sounding like a broken record here. I'd love it, but it's impossible to do because of possibility for bias.

quote: I would also like High Schools that specialized in certain areas, like Pure and Applied Sciences; History, Political Science, etc; or what not else.

Did you know what you wanted to do when you were only thirteen or fourteen? I sure hope not. :vomit:

quote: I'd rather see students go to school for an extra twenty days or more out of the year if it means that they can relax just a little at the school.

No! Bad. Bad Kirnwaffen! The schools can, presumably, teach a child an education to get him off the ground in 12 segments of 9 months. They've done it with millions of kids. What will an extra 20 days do? For the *******s who don't want to learn, they STILL aren't going to learn, and it will not be any more relaxed at all, as any common sense should show. (My argument for that, while being "there", hasn't exactly formulated. )

quote: Less testing. I wish I could calculate the number of days I lost because a teacher felt that he/she needed to waste time going over the format of some ridiculous state mandated test

It's all a balance between measurability and pain in the ass.

	29-07-2003 06:05									#29
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AS,

quote: how many eighth graders would go to school willingly if they weren't forced to?

I don't know. I would have. In any case, shouldn't that be a problem for parents to deal with? And no, being a single mom with two jobs is NOT an excuse for neglected your kid's education, so don't start that line of argument.

quote: as for the creationism issue... why the hell not teach creationism? if the community whose tax dollars goes towards education wants creationism taught then it is their right to have creationism taught... i'm surprised you of all people, david, would be against tax payers getting what they want out of their money

Well, it's hard for me to argue specifics like this, simply because I'm against public schools in every case. If you want to press me on the subject of privitized schools, then certainly, schools can teach whatever they want.

Let's just say I don't think it's a very good idea, or of good educational value, to teach theories with little scientific backing.

	29-07-2003 06:07									#30
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mrmitchell,

quote: I'm sounding like a broken record here. I'd love it, but it's impossible to do because of possibility for bias.

A couple of solutions. First of all, higher better teachers. Secondly, allow much more discussion. In general, philosophical issues don't have answers that are clear cut one way or another - that is, you can make arguments either way on many issues, and hearing all sides of the debate is valuable.