29-07-2003 19:18									#1
	What do we Xin for? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We are languishing in what looks like third place in the power polls.

Currently, we are researching techs at a rate of 27 turns, and running a 30 g surplus /turn.

Maximizing Taxmen and 70% tax gets us 81 gold a turn, but science would be reduced to 138 turns/tech.

Maximizing scientists and science at 70% as obiwan suggested, would get us to 10 turns/tech (and a large deficit, about 21 coins/turn, so we couldn't do this for long).

The real returns on either extreme strategy would be somewhat less, because we have to un-Xin the cities every other turn. The figures above are based on having all cities Xinning at once (which we can't do).

Putting this into context... we have a lot of diplomats drawing near the American cities. While we naturally want to pick up some techs on our own, the plethora of diplomats could allow us to steal some of the 'murrican's techs. Moreover, with enough cash, we might be able to buy some of their smaller cities (and pick up a tech in the purchase of course). Maximizing taxes would make this easier, of course.

So... what do we want to do?

	30-07-2003 00:00									#2
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Remember, our deficit of 21 coins per turn also reduces because of the fact that we can't xin every turn, and the turns that we stop xinning we can switch to tax.

To calculate our real deficit, I need to know the total coins generated even with full xinning.

Secondly, what are we doing during the non-xin turn? We only need 1 food surplus to avoid starvation, so can we pull off other workers in order to meet our deficit.

Finally, if we were Spotless, we could extort a stipend from the other puny civs to reduce our deficit.

What about more moderate positions, what setting would we need to break even?

If we are going for a high tax regime with xinning, we should reinvest the taxes into city improvements, so that we can increase the productivity of our citizens.

	30-07-2003 02:50									#3
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if we have no taxmen ever we will be broke in no-time, because our natural income/cost is something like 21/29
(IIRC)
If we keep 1 Xincity on taxes we can ake enough profit to keep our heads above water, so there would be 3(and soon again 4) cities that are able to Xin for science.

Shade

	30-07-2003 11:37									#4
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I suggest maximising the science rate; Xin the size 5 cities, but employ some taxmen in Xining cities with the appropriate infrastructure (eg a market) to eliminate the deficit.

RJM at Sleepers

	30-07-2003 20:28									#5
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The one thing I have learned about CivII in general is to avoid half measures. If you're going to build Crusaders and go to war, don't build them in 1/3 of your cities, build them in all cities (for example).

With this in mind, if we want to maintain the healthy rate of cash surplus we have now, we won't appreciably dent the science rate. Moreover, the surplus rate we have now will probably not be enough to buy any AI cities. So I propose going to extremes one way or the other. Eliminate the surplus and go all out for science, or put science on the back burner and pile up some cash. Trying for the middle ground will prevent us from taking any major steps forward, IMO.

Once either approach is chosen, it's up to the other ministers to decide what to do with the largesse. i.e. with a faster science rate, the Science Minister needs to map out a tech path (better government? better units?), and with a higher tax rate, the Minister of War may want to use some money for bribing. Or for that matter, we could rush some improvements.


@obiwan - I'm not sure what the Xin/nonXin numbers are. In the save I have, there are cities with a food surplus which are not Xinning when they could be. It's consequently hard to determine which cities will and will not Xin on a turn by turn basis.

As for the non-Xin turns; yes, we only need 1 food surplus, and it's pointless to have more workers than that on the land, since the additional surplus would vanish anyway on the Xin-turn. Thus, the superfluous workers should become either taxmen or scientists.

	30-07-2003 21:33									#6
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quote: With this in mind, if we want to maintain the healthy rate of cash surplus we have now,

euhm actually our cashrate is negative, the only reason we see a possitive is because we have 1 city Xinning Cash(gave me during play enough surplus to be able to rush in some places once in a while...without that 1 city our treasury wil dry up )

maybe we should first check the sellingprice?

Shade

	30-07-2003 22:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by shade euhm actually our cashrate is negative, the only reason we see a possitive is because we have 1 city Xinning Cash(gave me during play enough surplus to be able to rush in some places once in a while...without that 1 city our treasury wil dry up ) maybe we should first check the sellingprice? Shade

I was considering that city in the calculations based on the savegame - and IIRC I had suggested we use that city as a cash Xin, to fund our military construction in that area.

In any event the point still stands.. as we are now, we aren't making a lot of headway in science, and we aren't piling up enough cash to buy AI cities in large numbers.

	30-07-2003 23:36									#8
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quote: Trying for the middle ground will prevent us from taking any major steps forward, IMO.

Agreed, but information helps us to figure out how much we can get away with and still survive. The all out tax regime has advantages over the science regime in that taxes allow us to buy production either as city improverment or as crusaders.

If we could build the SoL, it would be much easier to vote for a high science regime in that we would only need to research Democracy to start a fundamentalist government. As it is, I think we still need to keep science high, just so we can build engineers given the size of the map.

Crusaders are awesome, but how useful are they if we can't send them to the front?

	30-07-2003 23:59									#9
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I heartily agree with STYOM's point -- half-measures will produce wimpy results.

I say, now that the huts have run dry, Xinning for science for as long as we can sustain it (then moving on) is the way to go.

	31-07-2003 06:16									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 If we could build the SoL, it would be much easier to vote for a high science regime in that we would only need to research Democracy to start a fundamentalist government. As it is, I think we still need to keep science high, just so we can build engineers given the size of the map. Crusaders are awesome, but how useful are they if we can't send them to the front?

Absolutely. We should continue our efforts to get Explosives and Railroad, and then we should concentrate on forging an Empire out of our relatively dislocated cities. If we can switch to a tax regime once we have achieved this basic science goal, we should be able to build up the infrastructure to continue our campaign against the AIs. Until then, it is going to have to be a slow but steady process.

Personally, I think we should concentrate on an 'offensive defense' by patrolling our borders with crusaders until we can funnel enough troops through in rapid succession using better transportation to more comprehensively deal with the 'Mericans and the Greeks.

	01-08-2003 18:03									#11
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We need $$$$$ for bribing cheap cities

	01-08-2003 18:50									#12
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Why are my polls always so evenly divided between/among rival city strategies?

Do you all really want me to have to decide on my own?

	01-08-2003 19:04									#13
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Its better that way as you get to suggest whatever you want