31-07-2003 00:39									#91
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quote: A legislature redrawing districts due to public demand from a referendum is a totally different thing from a legislature redrawing districts, in defiance of state legislative rules, just because there has been a change in power

No it isn't. It's exactly the same thing. I can't see the difference, other than in one case there is a referendum determining the people's will and in this case there is an election determining the people's will.

	31-07-2003 00:44									#92
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what is gerrymandering?

	31-07-2003 00:52									#93
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You can't possibly be serious. Absolutely no one campaigned on the plank of redistricting. If you look at town meetings across the state, DeLay's plan is immensely unpopular. Popular will, my arse. This is all about subverting the democratic process.

	31-07-2003 00:53									#94
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It's the process of divying up electoral districts to give a certain party an advantage.

	31-07-2003 00:55									#95
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Listen. No matter what else, it's wrong for a group of elected officials to run away, twice.

For the first time ever in my life, I'll probaly vote a straight ticket next election.

	31-07-2003 00:57									#96
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so it's also what they did to the district of Humberside in the UK?

	31-07-2003 01:03									#97
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quote: Listen. No matter what else, it's wrong for a group of elected officials to run away, twice.

Why? I'd say that no matter what else, it's wrong for a group of elected officials to try to subvert democracy, twice.

	31-07-2003 01:14									#98
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quote: Popular will, my arse. This is all about subverting the democratic process.

Subverting the democratic process? These are representatives of the people changing around the districting. How is this any more 'subverting' the process when every state in the country redistricts? Just because they aren't doing it in the traditional time? So?

	31-07-2003 01:26									#99
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quote: How is this any more 'subverting' the process when every state in the country redistricts?

Because the redistricting is extremely unpopular among the people of Texas, that the redistricting isn't occuring after a census or 10 year interval, and most importantly that this is one of the basest cases of gerrymandering in recent history. I suppose the aspect of the plan that's most outrageous to me is the partition of Democratic Austin into four and tying them into nearby Republican districts (eliminating my say in the state and federal goverments).

	31-07-2003 01:28									#100
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I think, in Texas, when you redistrict the voters you also reseat High School Football...oh no!!!!

	31-07-2003 01:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo (eliminating my say in the state and federal goverments).

You vote for Democrats?

	31-07-2003 01:30									#102
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quote: Because the redistricting is extremely unpopular among the people of Texas

Redistricting has rarely been a referendum vote. It's what the reps have to say that matters, it doesn't matter how unpopular it is except in the next election.

quote: most importantly that this is one of the basest cases of gerrymandering in recent history

So basically because the Republicans are now trying to outgerrymander the Democrats is why you have a problem with this? Why weren't you outraged by the previous map, which had been drawn up by the Dems in 1990 to electe as many Dem reps as possible by diminishing the Republican vote?

How is this really any worse than any other case of gerrymandering that 49 other states have done? Simply because the timing isn't the same as the other ones? I've already shown that the timing does not have to be the same.

	31-07-2003 01:33									#103
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Something fundimental needs to be changed about the redistricting process. It's like letting crack addicts have the responsibility for watching & safe guarding the world's crack supply.

	31-07-2003 01:37									#104
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quote: You vote for Democrats?

In some cases. Mostly Green and Libertarian though.

quote: Redistricting has rarely been a referendum vote. It's what the reps have to say that matters, it doesn't matter how unpopular it is except in the next election.

Yes, but that makes it no less democratic.

quote: Why weren't you outraged by the previous map, which had been drawn up by the Dems in 1990 to electe as many Dem reps as possible by diminishing the Republican vote?

The previous map was drawn up after the census in 2000 and Republican grievances were addressed in it by federal judges. And I was 5 and in California when the '90 map was drawn up.

quote: How is this really any worse than any other case of gerrymandering that 49 other states have done?

I'd bet that the other plans didn't completely eliminate the influence of a major city. The '90 plan didn't try to do that either, BTW.

	31-07-2003 01:41									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo In some cases. Mostly Green and Libertarian though.

If you mostly vote for Green and Libertarian, I have to ask where exactly you think your say in state and federal government is now and how you think this plan will effect it?

	31-07-2003 01:44									#106
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Again, I vote for some Democrats. Like the Austin Rep Lloyd Doggett.

	31-07-2003 01:48									#107
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quote: Yes, but that makes it no less democratic.

Then stop barking at the Republicans and bark instead at the whole process of redistricting .

quote: I'd bet that the other plans didn't completely eliminate the influence of a major city.

If it's elimination of a major city or similar numbers of rural voters does it matter? After all, when Republicans for Congress get ~57% of the vote in Texas, but only occupy ~41% of the seats, you'd have to figure a lot of rural folks are getting screwed over.

	31-07-2003 01:56									#108
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quote: Then stop barking at the Republicans and bark instead at the whole process of redistricting .

I do. And in this case, the Republicans are doing the redistricting (extremely unfairly), so I'm barking at them.

quote: If it's elimination of a major city or similar numbers of rural voters does it matter? After all, when Republicans for Congress get ~57% of the vote in Texas, but only occupy ~41% of the seats, you'd have to figure a lot of rural folks are getting screwed over.

The '91 plan didn't try to eliminate any Congressional districts or Congressional incumbents. DeLay's plan does.

The reason why there are so many Texas Democrats in Congress is because Texas Republicans are crossing party lines in Congressional elections. DeLay's problem is that several Republican districts aren't voting in Republicans for Congress. Again, all it amounts to is that DeLay doesn't like democracy.

	31-07-2003 02:35									#109
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I had a nice response and Poly ate it . So I'm going for the shorter version:

quote: The reason why there are so many Texas Democrats in Congress is because Texas Republicans are crossing party lines in Congressional elections. DeLay's problem is that several Republican districts aren't voting in Republicans for Congress.

You TOTALLY misunderstood the numbers.

Of ALL the votes case in Texas Congressional elections, 57% were for Republicans. However, only 41% of the Congressional delegation was Republican. So 57% of the vote went to Republicans, but only 41% make up the delegation.

If you wish think of it in Electoral College terms. Say a candidate gets 57% of the popular vote, but ONLY gets 41% of the electoral vote. Don't you think that is something to rectify (well, the best option in the Presidential case is going to popular vote ).

quote: The '91 plan didn't try to eliminate any Congressional districts or Congressional incumbents.

You must be crazy to believe that a redistricting plan, in any state, where seats were added or decreased (they were added in '91 to Texas) you didn' t have districts or incumbents altered or changed in anyway.

In Jersey, for example, we gained a seat in 2000. Our districts were changed. One district was torn in two, while surrounding districts gained or lost area. One incumbent found himself in someone else's traditional district.

This happens in every redistricting around the country. So it's silly to say that a redistricting didn't remove any districts or incumbants.