31-07-2003 05:00									#31
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Hmmm... actually, I think I prefer RP having 3 upgradeable horses next turn over the gifting trick... further, if there is any way that RP is going to get the WW penalty for losing a city instead of us, fine.

And yes, this would be the worst 'exploit', or the closest we would have come.

Which does not mean I think galley chaining (see the turn thread) is one, we should do that no matter what. That is long been known as a tactic, not an exploit

DeepO

	31-07-2003 05:03									#32
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Z is dead. I say get everybody but one ultra damaged back to Pamplona, capture Leon, abandon both it and Z, defend the mountains around Salamanca, and force a conflict on the former RP lands.

We can determine our level of Knight assistance depending on where GOW's Riders are.

	31-07-2003 05:15									#33
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Leon can't be taken this turn without leaving a horse unit vulnerable.

What would people think of asking GoW and ND for an agreement that neither side will destroy cities in order to deny them to the other? I'd be fine with the idea of leaving Zaragoza in ND hands (I hope) briefly until a GS/ND combined force can take it back, but the idea of letting them claim the city only to destroy it when we threaten to retake it is another matter entirely.

I'm going to go ahead and start a thread on that in the public forum.

	31-07-2003 05:23									#34
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Sorry, disagree with that one, Nathan.

It's a totally valid tactic... heck I just did it myself in SP, fer chrissakes.

	31-07-2003 05:52									#35
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I'm not trying to argue that scorched earth tactics are illegitimate, but I think we're better off if we can get both sides to agree not to use them in this particular war.

	31-07-2003 07:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Are you sure about 5-7 Eastern Time? In the chat, Arnelos said probably @7-9pm Pacific Time, which would be 10-12 Eastern.

Darn. You are correct. That would be right about now. No sign of Togas around yet.

	31-07-2003 08:08									#37
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Is the chat room open yet?

	31-07-2003 09:44									#38
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RP is getting going late.

/join #MilOps Action

Apolyton server.

	31-07-2003 15:09									#39
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As long as teams like GoW are dilly-dallying with their in-game declaration of war to avoid WW, I honestly don't mind using teleporting tactics, no matter how crude they may be.

Anyway - what happened?
Togas already sent the save along. Can I get a debriefing?

	31-07-2003 20:43									#40
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I still have no idea what happened during RP's turn.
Can anyone please fill me in?

	31-07-2003 21:53									#41
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RP gave up on Z, moved a big stack to L6 (27 units, 8 Pikes, 8 Cats, 11 Med Inf), sent the Horses back to P, and left 4 Pikes in P to make sure ND couldn't take it. At best, ND has 5 injured Ansars that could hit P (2 3/4's, 2 2/2's, and a 1/5), so an attack is very unlikely, and would fail to take the city in any case.

The attack on the Z1 stack was given up on when the actual unit counts were given. The Pike was 4/4, and there was a 4/4 Med Inf, and a 3/4 one too. So even if everything went perfect, RP would have only gotten 1 shot at an Ansar with a Horse.

We are going to send them a little over 140g and Horses (Iron?) so they can upgrade 3 Knights, which they should be able to use the same turn. RP short rushed another Horse in P that can be upgraded the turn after. We aren't really sure if the Horse build will switch to a Knight when they get Chivalry, if it does, they will be able to switch the build to a Pike instead.

We will have 2 Workers on our Horses, to re-irrigate then re-road when we pillage it to break the Horse trade to RP.

The only other topic IIRC was that of the possible information leaks. RP seemed more interested than disturbed, but won't be posting chat logs with our troop information in it on their forum. I was basically falling asleep at that point, so my take on their reaction may be a bit off though.

	31-07-2003 22:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We aren't really sure if the Horse build will switch to a Knight when they get Chivalry, if it does, they will be able to switch the build to a Pike instead.

Yes it does, at least in previous patches. It could be so that without going into F6 it will finish, however if you do and go to F1, or upgrade in F3, all horses are switched to knights.

But indeed, they will be able to check, as long as they think on doing the upgrade before going into the city screen of Pamplona, everything will be fine, they can still switch to a pike.

As to information leaks: if there is a leak, it has to be a moderate one: all speculation on the Inchon maneuver was note accurate enough to really get inside information. BTW, when are we going to tell the rest of the world what really happened? After the war?

DeepO

	01-08-2003 01:28									#43
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Arnelos already did say that Inchon was for RP troops getting home, not for GS.

	01-08-2003 02:58									#44
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Nobody noticed, it seems. But that was not the only reason for Inchon, I consider the 7 cats more important than the 2 horses...

DeepO

	01-08-2003 03:42									#45
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If we return NM to RP this turn, won't GoW probably go for it instead of attacking Toledo?
IMHO we have the best odds at Toledo right now. Let's not gift back NM until the area is clear.

	01-08-2003 03:47									#46
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Doesn't matter (going for NM). If they would do it, we could attack their riders with knights next turn, while still having plenty of troops left to defend NM8 if we needed to. And attacking riders in jungle is better then attacking them on mountains

DeepO

	01-08-2003 03:52									#47
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They can be on the hills outside NM next turn, with 4.5 defense, and their next turn they can attack NM, and we don't have walls there.
IMHO our best odds are on the defense at Toledo, healing from their attacks, bombarding them and hopefully getting some injured riders for targets.

	01-08-2003 03:54									#48
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Hold on, I miscounted. They can be in NM88 (jungle) next turn, and from there attack.
I'd still rather go defensive in Toledo.

	01-08-2003 03:58									#49
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is NM88 forest? I thought it was jungle... which is why I thought they couldn't reach the hills in time. I'm still working from screenshots here

If they can end next turn at NM8, the situation is worse, but not problematic: all our riders, and a couple of MIs can reach that. Plus, as I said in the turn thread, in such a case, RP can give the city right back to us, so we can stuff it with pikes in case our knights aren't enough. Defense value of the jungle and a hill are the same, BTW.

DeepO

	01-08-2003 03:58									#50
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cross post... okay, that's better

DeepO

	01-08-2003 04:00									#51
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Jungles give +25%, hills give +50%.

	01-08-2003 04:04									#52
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even better

but what's most important is that we can defend the hill on NM8 in case not all of the riders would be destroyed, without cutting deeper in RP's production capability. NM is the second best city they have left, now that Zaragosa has been abandonned.

DeepO

	01-08-2003 04:06									#53
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Should GoW move to NM88, we'll have 10 knights, ~6 medinfs and 4 cats to attack with, but not a lot of pikes to garrison NM with.

	01-08-2003 04:08									#54
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Btw, they didn't abandon Zaragoza (I'm not sure if you meant that they actually abandoned the city or just forfeited it). We're hoping to be able to recover it back from ND later.

	01-08-2003 04:09									#55
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we don't need to garrison NM, leave it to RP. Instead, we can 'garrison' NM8. This will mean RP either has to go through our pikes, or tries to dircumvent us, thus never reaching NM before being destroyed.

DeepO

	01-08-2003 04:10									#56
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No, that was what I meant, sorry to be unclear. Although I'm pretty sure that in case ND gets threatened, they'd rather raze the city then give the possibility of letting it be reconquered. But any slim chance is a good one...

DeepO

	01-08-2003 18:06									#57
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I thought jungle gave +50%, same as hills.

-Arrian

	01-08-2003 18:16									#58
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Jungle gives +25%, same as forest (but costs more MPs, of course).

	01-08-2003 18:43									#59
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I stand corrected. Hrm.

-Arrian