30-07-2003 11:30									#1
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The public mudslinging has started

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=93447

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen THE GLORY OF WAR MANIFESTO REGARDING THE SITUATION IN SPAIN It is my dubious pleasure to announce to the world the steps will shall be taken by the Glory of War to fulfill it's military and political objectives in the short term. Our objective is like it has been with our valiant ally Neu Demogyptica, to destroy the nation of Spain due to the long-term threat it represents to the stability of Bob. Unfortunately, Roleplay's treachery has been manifested once again, by way of the unlikely alliance with the Gathering Storm, an alliance which has seen these two teams coordinate their efforts to hinder our troops in battle. In a cowardly act, Roleplay has gifted the cities of Santiago, Toledo, Bilbao and New Madrid to the Gathering Storm, with the hope that these cities should not fall into the hands of ND or GoW. Moreover, GS has explicitly threatened us that violation of their new borders in these cities will be considered a hostile act, notwithstanding that accepting these cities and hindering our progress was a hostile act in itself. GS has continued to harrass and sabataoge our war efforts since the beginning of the war and has left us no option but to defend ourselves from their actions. The gifting of cities, however, has not been one-sided. During the 10 BC turn, GS gifted the city of Inchon to Roleplay only to take it back the next turn. This transaction was initially undetected by both ND and GoW due to the nature of the turn order. It is our suspicion that this move was undertaken to speed the transfer of troops to a transportable location in the south of Stormian territory for possible action against ND or GoW in the future. This at the same time in which GoW was attempting to negotiate a peaceful middle ground in which our team would respect GS's possessions in Bob while at the same time GS not hindering our progress. It is obvious that GS has never had any peaceful intentions and that it will seek to establish a presence on Bob, regardless of past written agreements, signed in the name of the so-called "honor code" which they claim to uphold. Apparently GS is willing to violate deals and switch sides to its convenience despite appearing to be a team upholding a superior standard of decency and integrity. GS's action has shown that this "honor code" exists only as a figment of their collective imagination, and as a now-useless propaganda tool to try and convince the world that their word is solid as a stone. Thus, in order to ensure it's own survival, the Glory of War announces that no city gifted to the GS in Bob will be recognized as legitimate Stormian population centers and will be captured and razed at will. Furthermore, any GS troops in southern Bob moved to any position considered hostile to our own movements or assisting Roleplay troops, will be engaged. Should GS decide to violate the homeland of the Glory of War or Neu Demogyptica, we will consider this as an outright declaration of war between our nations and we will take all necessary actions not only to ensure our survival, but to ensure that the GS has no chance of winning this game up to the point in forfeiting our own victory and sacrificing our nation for the sake of a military or diplomatic victory to an allied team. This is GS's last chance to refrain from committing what in the long-run is ultimately suicide. We are prepared to give our nation away to ensure victory does not fall in GS's hands. The world is on our side. It is up to you to ensure that the Gathering Storm become a name associated with honor and skill, or that synonymous with treachery and arrogance. For our part, we did all we could to honor our committments, respect your interests and establish cordial relationships. Sadly, GS did not reciprocate in neither of these respects. In summary: - The Glory of War will from now on consider any gifted city in Spain as Spanish and will engage any hostile forces in the battlefield regardless of nationality. - Should GS ignore this manifesto, The Glory of War declares a permanent embargo and a break in relationships with GS. - Should GS ignore this manifesto, The Glory of War will take all steps necessary to deny victory to GS in this game. May the path of wisdom be the path you choose. FOR DVICTORY IN THE END! -Master Zen Consul of Foreign Affairs for The Glory of War.

We need to think of a harmonized response.

	30-07-2003 11:39									#2
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Posted.

quote: Yeah, whatever. You want it. You got it. You will get no bleating from us. Bring it on.

	30-07-2003 11:41									#3
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That may have been a mistake on my part. I wanted to short curcuit the normal feeding frenzy.

Where we go from here, I will wait for the team to say.

	30-07-2003 12:19									#4
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Points for discussion.

1. We signed no agreements to stay off of Bob.

2. We have violated no deals.

3. We have never been a part of any 'side' to be in a position to switch.

4. Whether or not the gutless wonders at GoW have declared war or not before we receive the turn, they may consider themselves at war as of now.

5. We welcome any actions the GoW may deem to be to their benefit at this point. They never met a deal with GS they couldn't resist breaking. Why should now be different?

6. It is good to know that the game boils down to one team or another must not win at all costs. At least we all know how it is now.

7. GoW should tend to their defences. We are coming.

	30-07-2003 12:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Darekill Neu Demogyptica welcomes this manifesto and stand to it's ally the Glory of War in this truely hard times. Up to this very date we lived in hope that GS was mistaken by us and had not realy planed to ally with treacherous Spain but this hopes were in Vain and if GoW will have to declare war on GS we will do it too. I can only see one chance for GS to avoid this terrible fate. Please give all the citys that you have been giftet back to Spain and if they should refuse this to the GoW or ND.

The comedy effect magnifies.

	30-07-2003 12:28									#6
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If I would design a personal response, it would be something like that:

Master Zen bullshitting, surprise, surprise!

In a nutshell:

quote: Unfortunately, Roleplay's treachery has been manifested once again, by way of the unlikely alliance with the Gathering Storm, an alliance which has seen these two teams coordinate their efforts to hinder our troops in battle.

You're right. Forging an alliance is treacherous indeed. Shame on RP and GS. Who else is allied?

quote: In a cowardly act, Roleplay has gifted the cities of Santiago, Toledo, Bilbao and New Madrid to the Gathering Storm, with the hope that these cities should not fall into the hands of ND or GoW. Moreover, GS has explicitly threatened us that violation of their new borders in these cities will be considered a hostile act,

Yea sure. The world knows, that borders are there to be violated, when ever it pleases GoW.

quote: notwithstanding that accepting these cities and hindering our progress was a hostile act in itself. GS has continued to harrass and sabataoge our war efforts since the beginning of the war and has left us no option but to defend ourselves from their actions.

You mean you have to defend your stacks next our undefended cities? Awww, that smells of bull... Moooooooooooo!

quote: The gifting of cities, however, has not been one-sided. During the 10 BC turn, GS gifted the city of Inchon to Roleplay only to take it back the next turn. This transaction was initially undetected by both ND and GoW due to the nature of the turn order. It is our suspicion that this move was undertaken to speed the transfer of troops to a transportable location in the south of Stormian territory for possible action against ND or GoW in the future. This at the same time in which GoW was attempting to negotiate a peaceful middle ground in which our team would respect GS's possessions in Bob while at the same time GS not hindering our progress.

Moooooooooooo!

And even if it were so, your point is? That we moved troops within our own territory? How despicable!

quote: It is obvious that GS has never had any peaceful intentions and that it will seek to establish a presence on Bob, regardless of past written agreements, signed in the name of the so-called "honor code" which they claim to uphold. Apparently GS is willing to violate deals and switch sides to its convenience despite appearing to be a team upholding a superior standard of decency and integrity. GS's action has shown that this "honor code" exists only as a figment of their collective imagination, and as a now-useless propaganda tool to try and convince the world that their word is solid as a stone.

Harsh word out of the mouth of a world-known treaty breaker.

Oh, and btw: Moooooooooooo!

quote: Thus, in order to ensure it's own survival, the Glory of War announces that no city gifted to the GS in Bob will be recognized as legitimate Stormian population centers and will be captured and razed at will. Furthermore, any GS troops in southern Bob moved to any position considered hostile to our own movements or assisting Roleplay troops, will be engaged.

Is this a declaration of war? We're scared! Who would've thought... that GoW were to honor a treaty.

quote: Should GS decide to violate the homeland of the Glory of War or Neu Demogyptica, we will consider this as an outright declaration of war between our nations and we will take all necessary actions not only to ensure our survival, but to ensure that the GS has no chance of winning this game up to the point in forfeiting our own victory and sacrificing our nation for the sake of a military or diplomatic victory to an allied team.

You mean, you have the right to violate our borders at will, and we shall honor ours or be disdained aggressors? Oh, and btw, thanks for all you have done so far for us to promote our victory! We've lost a lot, indeed! Mooo... no! Bullshit doesn't suffice. That's already Zenshit!

quote: This is GS's last chance to refrain from committing what in the long-run is ultimately suicide. We are prepared to give our nation away to ensure victory does not fall in GS's hands. The world is on our side. It is up to you to ensure that the Gathering Storm become a name associated with honor and skill, or that synonymous with treachery and arrogance. For our part, we did all we could to honor our committments, respect your interests and establish cordial relationships. Sadly, GS did not reciprocate in neither of these respects.

quote: In summary: - The Glory of War will from now on consider any gifted city in Spain as Spanish and will engage any hostile forces in the battlefield regardless of nationality. - Should GS ignore this manifesto, The Glory of War declares a permanent embargo and a break in relationships with GS. - Should GS ignore this manifesto, The Glory of War will take all steps necessary to deny victory to GS in this game.

All three translate to: "The GoW will not honor a treaty."



Oh... and before I forget it: Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

---

Of course I know, that line by line responses aren't good for this kind of "Manifesto", and that they imply a feeling of own guilt. Also, my wording may be too offensive (although in the OT it would be considered normal). Therefor I won't post this in public, it was rather to abreact myself.

	30-07-2003 12:37									#7
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The mooooooos are effective in parts. And you raise some other pertinent points.

	30-07-2003 13:01									#8
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My first response (not public):

We signed no agreement with GoW or anyone else to stay of Bob - that is a figment of GoW's imagination. We signed no alliance with GoW or ND - there were negotiation which broke down due to GoW and ND not being able to come close to offering us good enough terms. We did have a non-agression pact with GoW which they have now broken. GoW's objections to us making agreements with RP, or to moving units within our own territory, are obviously a joke. As far as honouring agreements goes, GoW has so far broken a deal with us by sending faked screenshots at the start of the Vox war, broken a deal with us by trading Feudalism before a no trade agreement expired (after 9 turns instead of 10, even with the most generous counting of turns), invaded us during the Vox war (whilst also doing everything they could to avoid having to fulfill their contract to attack us in support of Vox), and of course broken a non agression pact by attacking and razing a GS city. At last count, there is only one deal with GS that GoW have not actually broken, although they did try to renegotiate it part way through.

Would GoW care to offer any evidence whatsoever that we have broken a deal, or signed any agreement to stay off Bob? They know they can't.

	30-07-2003 14:05									#9
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I thought we weren't going to engage in a debate with them about this? Why respond to that thread at all? Lego are the only team who are really subject to being influenced by propaganda and we have a very good relationship with them and are keeping them informed via chats.

Who cares what MZ has to say in his silly public announcement? It requires no public response and shouldn't have gotten one, IMHO.

	30-07-2003 14:19									#10
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FP is right. Let's ask for a chat with Lego (but not immediately, or it'll look like we feel that we are guilty of something and have to defend ourselves).

	30-07-2003 14:31									#11
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There isn't exactly a wider world beyond Lego and Vox in this - everyone else is going to be biased by their involvement in the war. We might want to talk to Vox as well - they may be small, but there is no point aggravating them by acting as though they are too insignificant to notice.

	30-07-2003 14:31									#12
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May I post this?

quote: Haven't we been over the whole bravery/cowardice thing? IMHO, GoW was wise to have started a war where the odds were grossly in their favor. IMHO, GS was wise to have intervened in the war on Bob, because no intervention would literally mean forfeiting any chances of winning the game. GS was diplomatically outmaneuvered by GoW when they got us into a NAP and then told us that they're going to gangbang RP, and they don't want us to gain any hold on Bob but perhaps we would kindly send a few galleys to RP's shore to freak them out (but get no real reward out of it but promises, which GoW doesn't have much of a record at keeping). So GS was left with little choice but to return the same to GoW, and diplomatically outmaneuver them. Obviously the diplomatic phase is over. I suggest that we act accordingly and stop hurling words at each other, and start hurling sharp objects instead.

Also, I suggest that we switch to 'good-humored replies mode' and out of 'sarcasm mode', if we really want to make a good impression on Lego.

	30-07-2003 14:37									#13
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This situation is different to the Voxian war. Back then 4 other teams were being influenced by Beta's propaganda and we had to try and defend ourselves. It was a little messy, of course, but something had to be done.

This is totally different. Vox are so weak that their opinion on international matters is no longer relevant. RP and ND are both already involved in the war and need no pursuading about anything: they're not going to change sides at this point. The only team who's opinion we need to worry about is Lego. So far we're doing a good job about keeping them happy.

I can't even see why GoW bothered posting that announcement, to be honest. The public forum serves absolutely no purpose for this war.

	30-07-2003 14:55									#14
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I ask again, my I post the message quoted in my previous post in this thread?

	30-07-2003 15:18									#15
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Do what you like.

Personally, I would cut it down to just this:

quote: Obviously the diplomatic phase is over. I suggest that we act accordingly and stop hurling words at each other.

That certainly sums up my views, but you should do as you please.

	30-07-2003 15:27									#16
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BigFree just gave me the best opportunity ever to post that.
Btw, I don't think we should ignore Vox. Let's ask them for a chat, get very polite, reminiscend on the days of the war, and build up relations. Even if its bad relations, it's better than silence, because it's much easier for humans to screw up a man with no face.

	30-07-2003 15:50									#17
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.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 30-07-2003 at 17:43

	30-07-2003 17:00									#18
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I like NYE's response. If we left it at that, it would have been perfect.

	30-07-2003 17:11									#19
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As much as GF's mad ramblings may annoy some of us, please, let's not respond to him.
We don't need to fan the flames. We can give our version of events to Lego later.

	30-07-2003 17:19									#20
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GoW are trying to influence Lego and Vox. There may be more going on in private between these three.
We absolutely MUST schedule chats with Lego and Vox.

	30-07-2003 17:31									#21
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Agree, Shiber. I'll start some discussion in the Lego thread. Who is responsible for Vox?

DeepO

	30-07-2003 17:53									#22
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Clearly the only "audience" is Lego/Vox. So chatting is a good idea.

Sorry, I responded to MZ's thread before I came here, but I don't think my response was problematic.

-Arrian

	31-07-2003 04:46									#23
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I very much applaud Shiber's counter-thread.

I personally think, reading the Manifestos thread pretty much all at once, that the whole damn thing STINKS... and I was sorry to see that at certain points we got sucked into it.

I suggest that we identify 'friends' on each of the teams, and craft a PM to all on the order of "We were all pretty bummed out that relations got a little out of hand... just want you to know that we are all still friends and are enjoying our intense PTWDG experience."

I don't care if any of us are currently p*ssed off... get over it.

I expect the members of Gathering Storm, being who we are, to be mature and composed.