30-07-2003 16:25									#1
	Right of Passage and AI-knowledge. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

With the exchange of ROP, the human player has to wonder around on that specific AI-terrain to get the actual map development.

I have never seen the AI explore my terrain.

Does this mean that he gets automatically my Territory Map?

Is his knowledge updated every turn for the duration of the ROP?

	30-07-2003 19:53									#2
	Re: Right of Passage and AI-knowledge. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by georges bonbon With the exchange of ROP, the human player has to wonder around on that specific AI-terrain to get the actual map development. I have never seen the AI explore my terrain. Does this mean that he gets automatically my Territory Map? Is his knowledge updated every turn for the duration of the ROP?

hi ,

the AI sees everything from the start , including all the resoucres , even if the AI does not have the tech to use them yet , .....

when you sell your map he just get a huge update , ....

so its common to see how two people go to war without you have sold any map , ......

have a nice day

	31-07-2003 13:40									#3
	Re: Re: Right of Passage and AI-knowledge. Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by panag when you sell your map he just get a huge update , ....

Thank you.

	01-08-2003 00:05									#4
	Re: Re: Re: Right of Passage and AI-knowledge. Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by georges bonbon Thank you.

hi ,

no problem , geen probleem , pas un problem

your welcome

have a nice day

	01-08-2003 18:23									#5
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Does he gets the update every turn during the ROP?

	01-08-2003 20:48									#6
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georges: the ai knows the location of every city/unit/resource at all times, regardless of ROP or map trading. (The only 'negative' effect selling a map to someone has is giving them a more valuable map for them to trade to tohers)

To me, this is about the #1 problem with the AI. There's no such thing as a sneak attack, only an AI exploit.

	02-08-2003 01:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax georges: the ai knows the location of every city/unit/resource at all times, regardless of ROP or map trading. (The only 'negative' effect selling a map to someone has is giving them a more valuable map for them to trade to tohers) To me, this is about the #1 problem with the AI. There's no such thing as a sneak attack, only an AI exploit.

hi ,

it seems the AI does not know what units are in a city , ......

unless he has seen for example a ship enter and has not seen it come out , ....

at least that seems to be the general thinking , ....

have a nice day

	02-08-2003 03:05									#8
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , it seems the AI does not know what units are in a city , ...... unless he has seen for example a ship enter and has not seen it come out , .... at least that seems to be the general thinking , .... have a nice day

Does not know? I thought the common wisdom was the AI has a pretty good picture of what units are on the map. At least when it is in "attack mode". My own observational evidence seems points to this.

What the AI does not seem to know in advance, or probably more accurately, does not act on the knowledge, are position of goody huts. It's use of scouts seems to be somewhat less than prescient.

	02-08-2003 04:43									#9
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"What the AI does not seem to know in advance, or probably more accurately, does not act on the knowledge, are position of goody huts. It's use of scouts seems to be somewhat less than prescient."

i often see goodie huts right next to AI borders and they wont touch it for quite some time...

one time i was between the aztecs and spanish. several times, i began moving troops toward the aztec border to attack, each time, the spanish would move their troops closer to my border. I would move my troops back to defend, and the spanish would fall back, as well...

	02-08-2003 05:28									#10
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In earlier versions of the game, the AI knew exactly where my undefended cities were. An otherwise peaceful AI could suddenly declare war if some of my cities were undefended (even if they were deep in my borders), and it would go straight to these cities.

don't know if the AI continues doing so, because I haven't had undefended cities in quite some now

	02-08-2003 22:02									#11
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I often have undefended core cities , and I think the enemy tries to reach them still, but my border defense includes strong offense so they never make it past. They do try.

	02-08-2003 22:54									#12
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The AI "knows" in the sense that the AI is on your computer, and the map is on your computer, so theoretically the AI could access it. However, the AI has been specifically programmed NOT to do this in the vast majority of cases.

	02-08-2003 22:56									#13
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how is that?

	03-08-2003 00:09									#14
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I noticed that if you block the AI from settling in an area (by building a city at a chole point and then filling in) they won't try to go there, unless you give them your map.

But I really don't care what they know ahead of time, if they still give me gold every turn for my map.

	03-08-2003 03:10									#15
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Turk Man - the AI is programmed with a certain behavior... but it is really just a long series of nested if-else blocks. So, they program it to look at only the knowledge that it "knows".

Theoretically, you know the entire map too. There is just a graphical effect keeping you from seeing it (the fog of war and unexplored area stuff can be edited so it is completely clear).

	03-08-2003 16:30									#16
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Of course, you can only do that at this point through the editor, and only from the beginning, by establishing it as part of a scenario.

	03-08-2003 20:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax I often have undefended core cities , and I think the enemy tries to reach them still, but my border defense includes strong offense so they never make it past. They do try.

hi ,

he knows wheter or not a city is defended but he does not know exactly how many units there are in a city , ......

have a nice day

	03-08-2003 22:11									#18
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Does he know what units are in transports? If this is true I could put a ton of transports and ships near his sea border he'll think I'm attacking even if no one is in the transports. It would be a decoy. If it was a better AI he'd send his forces to where the transports were right along his coast, then I'd send in transports from farther away and land on lightly defended land. But of course the AI doesn't really concentrate forces anywhere. He just has 2 or 3 units per city. I hope they change this in civ4.

	03-08-2003 22:32									#19
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Does he know what units are in transports? If this is true I could put a ton of transports and ships near his sea border he'll think I'm attacking even if no one is in the transports. It would be a decoy. If it was a better AI he'd send his forces to where the transports were right along his coast, then I'd send in transports from farther away and land on lightly defended land. But of course the AI doesn't really concentrate forces anywhere. He just has 2 or 3 units per city. I hope they change this in civ4.

hi ,

it seems not , .....

2-3 units a city is good , as long as you keep several mobile groups around and support units , like carriers and bombers with some artillery , ......

have a nice day

	03-08-2003 22:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Of course, you can only do that at this point through the editor, and only from the beginning, by establishing it as part of a scenario.

Nope. Just edit the graphics files containing the fog of war and unexplored overlays. The game draws the entire map without those, then draws those on top.

	04-08-2003 15:38									#21
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Thank you for the discussion.

But does the AI get an update (during a ROP) of the changes my workers made during the last turn without exploring my terrain?

I have to do it!

	04-08-2003 17:40									#22
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No, Georges. The ROP doesn't update map info on its own, and I haven't seen an AI 'scouting' my terrain.

(thanks for reminding everybody what the actual question was)

On general AI map knowledge - it knows where all the units, cities, resources and barbarians are, but not goody huts. Despite this, it still has its own 'darkness' map and will pay for new terrain uncovered or terrain improvements.

The AI's barb knowledge is useful. Trade for anyone's worldmap and you'll see the barb huts. This saves fruitless trecking, and if serious barb farming is employed, good coin can be earned by quickly popping a barb, then withdrawing and waiting for a new camp. Not having to search means more popping and more cash.