01-08-2003 18:55									#31
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Sounds good.

	01-08-2003 19:45									#32
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I think we'll leave this pre-selection open for a week or something like that.......

	01-08-2003 20:57									#33
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In a new thread, right?

	01-08-2003 23:16									#34
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I haven’t tried the poll route so I don’t know how sophisticated we can get. I still have version 1.2, but can upgrade -- I don’t remember anyone else posting anything except for 1.31, so that may not be an issue (i.e. if someone desperately wants 1.2, speak up…)

I think that the first decision screen has the space size, game difficulty, age (org rich, min rich, average), game start (pre-warp, etc.) and the mixed choice of Antarans, events, etc.

I recommend that we somehow group these decisions together because a couple of them interrelate (game start & space size -- huge gives the player more time to at least get space ships, making pre-warp a little more interesting.)

(For my two cents -- if we go with impossible, then I think we should have a large or huge size to get us up & running -- folks seem to think that impossible, small is too difficult -- I haven’t done it, but I really haven’t played that much either. If we go with Hard, then any size is OK -- but it is a different game & some luck comes into play regarding the first star system. Age -- I usually go with average for the variety. Game start -- I usually go with pre-warp; also I don’t mind the Antarans, but I find that the “luck” factor of the events are annoying more so than interesting, so I often leave that toggle off.)

Second phase is the race pick -- here I think that we are all agreed -- something custom (I usually pick my face to be the Elorans -- might as well enjoy looking at them as any other -- unless Genghisfarb has some substitutes…)

Again, I think that we may have to make this decision as a combined one -- the dis-ads and ads need to sync up or else the final choice won’t work as well as otherwise. I recall seeing a thread or two discussing the basic “theme” -- productive (Uni, +1Pro, etc.) vs research (Dem, +1 Res,…) Note that the “theme” idea guides the choices and helps to limit them -- so a poll could be just the three -- productive, scientific, banana.

	02-08-2003 01:17									#35
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no we want a random race where no one gets what they want, and the race sucks as a result :P

	03-08-2003 16:14									#36
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At this point, let me just say that Uni combined with Creative would be a waste. With creative we would eventually have morale boosters out the wazoo, which would be rendered useless by Uni.

I would like to see subterranean and aquatic.

	03-08-2003 16:18									#37
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My preferred galaxy would be huge average, eight players, all options on. Hard or average difficulty.

	03-08-2003 16:19									#38
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Restart allowed for really sucky system.

	03-08-2003 18:58									#39
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hmm, going to have to work up the courage to start a government poll...

	03-08-2003 20:26									#40
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quote: Restart allowed for really sucky system.

I'd say stick it out, if it sucks enough we'll probally lose in a few days anyways. If we don't, then we can feel like we accomplished something.

Oh and Mad Monk, Subt. is my favorite trait too I don't think I ever tried it with aquatic though

	03-08-2003 21:24									#41
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This is going to be complicated. Let's have a poll on the General Settings first (Galaxy size, etc.) then have a final poll on our race settings.

	03-08-2003 23:20									#42
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I think you got to play on at least hard. I just finished two test games for someone at hard and it was no fun as the AI is too weak and never even mustered an attack.
If you play on med you would have to use only negative picks to make interesting.
My two cents on creative is that it eliminates some of the fun. You do not have to think about tech choices, only the order of them.
IOW you may need to go with one field earlier than normally, but you never have worry about which one of the items to select.
I am not saying you can't lose with a creative race, but it plays itself.
Map size are all fine, except that the bigger it is the easy it is to play the game. So if the difficulty goes down from impossible the map size should go down with it.
I mean what is the easy game of all, huge map with lowest level of difficulty. What is the hardest, impossible on small map (IMO).

	04-08-2003 01:54									#43
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I don't see how creative plays itself, my tech choices never vary when i'm playing a non-creative race. All it does is give you a bunch of "oh thats nice" techs that are worthless otherwise.

similarly uni/tol constrains the tech tree in such a way as to almost be creative. The only tough choices for a uni/tol race come after the game would have been won.

	04-08-2003 03:24									#44
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You never have to choose at all as a creative race. You may elect to change the order of the fields from time to time, but that is all.
UniTol is just one race, there are a lot of other non creative races.
Here is one tough choice (IMO):
FORCE FIELD 900 rp

Planetary Radiation Shields
Class III Shields

If you have a bunch of radiated planets and are not a lith, you sure want the shield, but you want that new class III shield as well, especially if you skipped class I. Creatives do not face that choice. They did not face teh first choice of Class I or Mass Drivers, they get them all.
I know there are others, but yes once you know how to play the game the choices are pretty much autumatic.
That is not to say painless. It is painless for a creative race.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 04-08-2003 at 03:31

	04-08-2003 03:28									#45
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So I meant by it plays itself is you have no concern about the tech tree and do not even have to bother stealing, only defend against spies.
You can sit on one system and build away till late in the game and the attacks start and still win. You do not have to make any choice of any type in that game, except when to start cranking up the military to take over the map.
I have done it many times and Balakov has posted a step by step log of just such a game.
It plays itself.

	04-08-2003 04:59									#46
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just how helpful are class 3 shields? I haven't noticed stellar preformance from them, but perhaps I haven't played against the right people.

It seems that inertial stablizers and ecm jammers would be better then the shield at blocking damage due to the weapons missing then the shield could block.

I have done the creative/sub/LRA HW/ game, but that depends on you not starting next to a zenophobe more then anything else(which is the same as doing the all negative picks game), also I'd bet that demo/sub/LRA HW would be better suited to the challenge since you get 145% research. You just need to trade for a good computer for your ships and perhaps megafluxers.

	04-08-2003 06:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha just how helpful are class 3 shields? I haven't noticed stellar preformance from them, but perhaps I haven't played against the right people. It seems that inertial stablizers and ecm jammers would be better then the shield at blocking damage due to the weapons missing then the shield could block.

Ok, I am not sure where this is going, well actually I am, no where. I never intended to debate the merits of a given tech. For the record, it is not important how good the class III shields are, they are better than no shields, that is all that choice is about. At that point I have no shields at all, that is all I am saying. I could use rad shields, I could use Class III, but can not have both.
You are right, I may well pass the Class III at this point. I was merely saying it is not without confliction. This confliction does not exist for creatives.
As to stellar peformances is it not unheard of to have the shileds be the differnece between a win and a loss.
I have even had the Class I shields stand between a lost ship and a battle won. Some may call that stellar.

	04-08-2003 08:08									#48
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No I mean to ask how effective they are, I never pick them, I'd like to know if im missing out on something that is useful in multiplayer and against the ai.

	04-08-2003 08:35									#49
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Sorry my mistake. I seem to be getting good at sticking my foot into my mouth.

Here is what they do:

Class III Shield Shp Absorb (15 x size) damage before failing.
-3 enemy attack strength even when failed.
So how useful are they? That depends on what you are up against and what you have to work with.
If the attacker does not have have shield piercing weapons then they will be useful. This is unlikely at the stage that these shields are coming online.
Remember these are used in other than ships as well, if you have the tech.
(Class X size) X 5 = strength of each of the 4 shields.
Size 1 to 6 for small to DS. Class is the shield level.
So a battleship is 60 points of absorbtion. That is a fair amount of damage to stop at this point in the game.
As a tele I have had to use class I shields to allow my ship to take down the star base with out being lost. those few HP were the difference.
I tend to not use ECM as I will normally stay out of range of planetary missile. I mean they get to me, but to slowly. Later when they have better missile and mods, I will come with an overwhelming force.

So I am not sure I can answer the question, but I can provide some information and you can draw your own conclusions. It may be that there are time for either method. That is what is fun, nothing can be right in all occassions.

	04-08-2003 08:43									#50
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I should have mentioned that 60 is for each shield and you have 4. So if you can turn to present another shields that is not down, you prolong the life of the ship.
I think it is only plasma cannons that hit all 4 shields at once. When they come, you will have much better shields or even dampers. If you have reinforced hulls which most of the non creative races will go for, you have triple structure points. This combined with the shields will stand up to the mass drivers for a lot of rounds. Well not if they came with a bunch of ships. But again at this stage of the game that is not likely.
The main thing in the MP game is that the human player will adapt and the AI wil be very slow. So anything that works in MP, will not work for all that long. In SP, the ai will not be upgrade the ships in any timely fashion.

	04-08-2003 08:46									#51
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its ok, and just did some testing with this hotseat game I have, wow. I could probably start taking over ais much eariler with these.

autofire mass drivers handle missiles very well(as the tests show, 2 class 3 shields AF mass driver battleships took 4 mirv nuke boats), I guess theres a situation where normal is better then heavy.

	04-08-2003 08:57									#52
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Yup, that is why I like the game. Every now and then you have to stop and reevaluate how you are doing things. Some times a different tech or strat will work better than the one I was using. The situation is only slightly changed, but that may be enough.
That is why some times I want the class I shields and other times (most) I want the driver. If I am a tele, I do not need that driver right now and the shields could be a small edge. If I am missile orientated, shield, if not driver. Same for the Rad vs Class III. Mostly it is Class III, but a game I just played I felt the Rad would pay more right then. I waited for CLass V or steal some shields. No matter which choice I made it cost me a something one way or the other.

	04-08-2003 09:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha I guess theres a situation where normal is better then heavy.

This is one I really took to heart in a recent game. It was just as I was saying. Sometime you have to change up.
I use HV mount mass drivers with out a though at that stage of the game. But I saw that I could do better in this one scenario with just normal mounts and have a lot more guns. I move up closer and take down the planet sooner and save some losses. This may not be the right move all the time, what is? I have not used normal mounts since, but you never know.

	05-08-2003 02:16									#54
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I think that there are two points of discussion regarding "creative" or not. One is the re-allocation of the 6-8 points among other picks -- so there is a "cost" with the choice of creative. In a similar fashion, by "choosing" to have Mass Driver and +1 shields and later Pl Rad Sh and +3 Shield, it may come at the cost of not having +5 Sh by that time.

The second is the "value" of having the second (and third) best choices from the tech tree. The armor/fuel cell tradeoff for one -- I seem to forever get around to upgrading those later than I'd like (only because everything else seems more urgent.)

By having creative (maybe at the cost of +2 res) I can postpone physics and have the Mass Driver/Gauss Cannon as my major beam weapon & have it upgraded while I also get the better shields -- nice to have when I don't have sufficient firpower to take out the enemy on the first round.

Similar comment for the pollution & missile choices in Chemistry -- I get there late as well.

Of course then the difficulty is also due to the fact that I'm sitting back too much terraforming my corner of the gaxay to perfection -- 10% of the planets & 40% of the population (easier to defend -- but that is also a weakness in this game -- the early offenders seem to have the easier go of it.)

Then of course, there is the fact that some of those "nice" second best techs won't be available when I want them because the ai might not have chosen them either. I like someother folks do have a somewhat greedy side -- in wanting it ALL, I sacrifice having it NOW. (So I tend to choose the all over now.)

But this conversation is all from my very limited experience -- maybe 50 starts & a dozen completions.

	05-08-2003 14:41									#55
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Wrong thread..........

	05-08-2003 22:35									#56
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Old n Slow I would say that it is not 6-8 picks. It is 8. I say that because if you can get creative for 6 pick you must take it (if you are try for a strong race). You can not spend 6 picks on anything better, since you will have enough left over to get all the key ones.
This is why I do not like 1.2, creative is no longer a hard choice to make, just take it. At 8 picks, all the things you mention come into play at 6, I do not sweat them.
Creative (6), Uni (6) Aqua (5), LHW, RHW is just going to rock. Want those morale booster, drop Uni and LHW and go with Demo.

	06-08-2003 00:08									#57
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you cant pick a tolerant,unification,creative race even with it at 6 points, so I have no problem with the pick there. Nowif it was 4 picks, then there would be a problem.

	06-08-2003 00:08									#58
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You’re probably right. Since I’m still on 1.2, I’m probably getting spoiled & developing bad habits of easy play.

Started a hard level game last night, huge space, mineral rich for a change, pre-warp as usual. Something like -- Creative, Sub, Uni, LHW, -.5 Food, -20 Ship def, Repulsive.

By the time I had my 4th system, the Psi showed me their four worlds on the other side of the map (a wormhole away) and the Sak showed me their six systems right next door (and they were repulsive…) 35 turns later I finally (circa turn 165+) moved out against the Saks -- felling very unprepared, under-strong with my mondo fleet -- 2 BB, 1 CA, 2 Scouts (with no guns) & four transports.

Six worlds & 20 turns later, one BB was left, and the six Sak systems had crossed over to my way of thinking. This was the first time I’ve taken a serious look out “early” with the BB having Class III shields & the auto fire MD’s. Amazing how light their defense is at an “early” stage of the game. (I might not go through the finishing activity as it looks like my population is equal to the rest of the ai put together.)

I think that I’ll need a few more games at this stage with this plan to get into a comfortable groove -- then try some different mixes to see the strengths & weaknesses.

	06-08-2003 00:12									#59
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maybe feudal/tol/creative/prod race, or lith instead of tol... hmm I'll have to try that out in a hotseat game.

And thats another thing, in just about every hotseat game I've played to test out stuff(I have creative at 6) the creative guy gets clobbered.

	06-08-2003 00:36									#60
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Creative is a tough pick in an MP game as you need time and the players will not give it to you.
The other thing in MP is the picks only matter if the players are equally skilled. If one of them better or worse that the rest, the picks will not offset that difference.