31-07-2003 18:39									#31
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And they don't have to hijack any plains. They have already hijacked the industry. Giving threats will be bad for the industry. Just keep everyone on a little scare, that's enough, and then go do something else, what you're really planning on doing. So I wouldn't hijack a plane if I was terrorist, but I'd say it's very possible and doable.

	31-07-2003 18:55									#32
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Besides, terrorist attacks in recent years have shown a clear pattern of always doing multiple attacks simultaneously. So it doesn't have to be one shot and if it fails, everything fails. I bet they know every single security detail there is to know for the planes and other stuff too. There might be some changing variables in security measures, that it doesn't get too same though.

So, what I'd do if I was a terrorist bastard, I'd attack on planes with my average guys, not too good because they are to be used elsewhere, but not bad because it's a bonus if it works. So it doesn't matter if the get caught or not. But that makes huge headlines, put 30 of these guys to hijack 6 planes, make sure they are classified and categorized as arabs. Make sure they have Korans and what not. Think of something new they would try, nothing too smart, but nothing stupid either. Give the image of a huge attack that took 2 years prepare that now failed or succeeded. Failure is more likely, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that it seems like a huge one and that it draws all the attention, and don't seem too stupid. Then you should have the real target next to it, lets say next to big city. Now it's the time for the REAL multiple attacks. Use white guys in the city that is in chaos or at least in big scare now because there will be military rolling and there will be mass arrests. So use white guys. Few bombings, and then few crazy shooting sprees with automatic weaponry. They can be random, but the explosives must be carefully placed and planned.
You make several areas pressured, so they seem like the problem areas where will be casualties and where all help is going. Now, few more white guys is ready to take on the rescuing forces, ambulances mostly, not military that much if there is any. From high building hotel rooms, several snipers and granade attacks.

Now it's full chaos, and you should attack city next to it too. There won't be that much cops etc there now. It's a free place to attack almost. That is where you give the gas attacks and where you have planned the hideous tactics. Or it can be the suburbs of that same city, but should be several miles away from the downtown of the city you just attacked. These will be executing the operation after there is full chaos in the city, not the same time.

Then you need few more white guys, who starts raining fear again when the chaos is little bit calmed down, let's say after 12 hours. Make sure no one sleeps that night.

And that's it. Then you can make several threats across the country to keep cops and everyone awake and occupied to make them tired.

And to do this you don't need much of anything, just basic weaponry, and 30-40 white guys.

This would be really bad I think. So, you don't need to hijack anything, but if you success, it's all a bonus to the bastards.

I mean hell, you can get those cop uniforms to make it easier, or fire fighter suits are even better. Under those you can carry lots of what you need, and they are everywhere so no one gives you any crap or treis to search you and you can get into buildings. Maybe place explosives to a building that is now being rescued by firefighters. Just run next to them, and then *kaboom*. Now that's a real moral killer, and rumors starts spreading wild that terrorists are in firefighter and cop suits all over the city attacking.

Last edited by Pekka on 31-07-2003 at 19:02

	31-07-2003 18:57									#33
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btw I hope this won't happen, because 1) it'll be a tragedy and 2) I'll be SCREWED!

	31-07-2003 19:07									#34
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And the point of thiis all is not to make people scared of drool for terrorist attacks. Just that it doesn't change anything if you put stronger doors to cockpits. But you should still do that too, so no foul doings there.

And that the best and maybe only defense against these kind of simple but horrible attacks are to have a good intel all the time, up to date and strike first.

	31-07-2003 19:59									#35
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even in the wake of 9/11, hijackings will always be possible.

they're a good deal less likely, not so much because of airport security measures (which, by and large, are there to make you feel better rather than actually providing air security), but because of new regulations coupled with increased numbers of air marshals and more passenger awareness.

however, it is always possible, even if fez and yavoon say it's not. until recently, we had blind spots in baggage screening, for instance. where there's a will, there is a way, and only constant vigilance will prevent hijacker's success.

	31-07-2003 21:41									#36
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I think yes... some people seem to be overconfident in terms of current security. My sister was on an international flight (American Airlines) and she said the cockpit door was locked and secure, but yet, the pilot came out many times to use the bathroom, and the flight attendents went into the cockpit to give the pilots food. My sister said it would have been easy for a Terrorist to jump up and rush the cockpit at that moment.

Dissident: According to "Bush at War" by Bob Woodward, there were two F-15's heading towards the second plane that hit the WTC at supersonic speeds. The F-15's were only about 15 minutes away when the planes hit. It is quite possible the other plane was shot down. Bush gave the order to shoot down all hijacked planes after the first plane hit.

	31-07-2003 21:55									#37
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Sava, is that information classified, or why it hasn't been told , or is it some leftist propaganda?

I mean, if I was the president, and knowing what just had happened earlier and having some facts, I'd prolly order the same thing even if it is a horrible decision to make. But wouldn't everyone know this for a fact, since they could tell from debris and all quit easily if it was shot down or if it crashed? Weren't there images all over the news about the crash site, and if so, then couldn't many people tell, that it was shot down and not crashing itself? Or was it shot down so, that it crashed and didn't explode in the air? Because if it was shot and there was an explosion, then it would be rather easy to tell from pictures, because debris would be all over, where it's not supposed to be if it just crashed?

	31-07-2003 22:02									#38
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My point was, if it was shot down, then how come news didn't pick it up, as they showed the images, and surely many people saw them, and many people with expertise could have figured it out and prove it? It's a question, because I don't know.

And then, even if it was shot down, is there someone to blame? Maybe it was the only thing at that point you could do... to save the lives of others?

	31-07-2003 22:43									#39
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It is very easy to commit a terrorist act (hijacking planes, planting bombs...) To avoid it completely the countries would have to be under a complete policial state. Every individual must be controlled. Of course there are very efficient ways to prevent this from happening, but there is always an small chance that the controls will fail. So the planes can be hijacked. It is a lot more difficult than it was before, but it can happen.

	31-07-2003 23:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is why the Air National Guard and Air Force need to be on constant patrol, Sandman. There was an incident where a prop-plane I think got too close to the president's motorcade. It was intercepted.

All the terrorists need to do is turn off the transponder on their modified plane and it will become difficult to track. They can just ignore defended targets and hit unprotected stuff, like oil refineries (or maybe these are protected?).

Instead of equipping your business jet with explosives, you could outfit it with concealed gatling guns and missiles, and launch surprise raids on strategic targets. Mercifully, Islamic terrorist groups don't have the resources to do this.

	01-08-2003 00:08									#41
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From the terrorist viewpoint, why hijack another plane? Instead, have a suicide bomber roll up to the Mall in D.C. with a carbomb and let go? Easier, and virtually guaranteed to succeed.

	01-08-2003 00:20									#42
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A good idea would be to recruit a cargo plane pilot, or better yet, kidnap a cargo plane from a country like Yemen or something. Then, you'd load the plane with explosives, and fly it to New York, which will be it's designed destination, then you'd crash it into the Empire State Building or something.

	01-08-2003 00:25									#43
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Hitting buildings with planes is passe. You have to give terrorists more credit than that... they like to be creative.


Besides, there's no need to hit another building with planes... the goal has already been accomplished... to lure the Americans into war. With that done, there's no more need for grand, spectacular acts of terrorism.

	01-08-2003 00:38									#44
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on the contrary. they now have to prove they're still as strong as ever, and still are able to do whatever they want to.

	01-08-2003 00:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel on the contrary. they now have to prove they're still as strong as ever, and still are able to do whatever they want to.

So the US-Administration will attack yet anothert Muslim Country?
Yes, if they want their Brethren to stand up and declare a holy War against America, it would be a good move to get America to continue invading Arab countires

	01-08-2003 00:47									#46
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Azazel, in the case of terrorists in Palestine, the goal there was to wear down your resistance. Thats why its relatively small attacks in rapid succession over a long period of time.

In the case of 9/11 it was different... Terrorists are not stupid... they are clever psychologists and particularly Al-Queda and its associate groups. They certainly know what happened in 1941 when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.... America went to war and went to war HARD.

That was the intention... terrorists are not so much interested in the act itself... its the REACTION. They knew that if they hit us, that we'd hit back, and if we did they were hoping the Muslim populations would be outraged. 9/11 was an effort to mobilize the Muslim people against us, not to break our spirit as so many have claimed...

It did, to some degree fail... they were expecting B-52s to napalm Afghanistan off the map... but instead Bush (and wisely so as much as I hate to admit it) took a more.... cautious strategy.

In a sense, Al-Queda was offering its entire organization as one big suicide attacker... that in the wake of its obliteration would arise a new Muslim will... they were wrong.

	01-08-2003 00:50									#47
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Al-Qaeda got their butt kicked after 9/11: Afghanistan lost, half their leadership dead, and Arab people sucking up ever more to the West. Are these what they had intended?

Airplane hijacking is always possible, just a few ways:
- The armed pilot is an Al-Qaeda member.
- The hijacked plane is a cargo plane. (No passengers to fight against)
- The hijacked plane is a foreign airliner arriving in the US. (especially Canadian ones)
- They use their own planes.
- They join forces with US domestic terrorists.

Besides airline hijackings, how about trucks and ships carrying dangerous load?

	01-08-2003 00:52									#48
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It may not be what they intended, but 9/11 Round 2 won't change the results...

	01-08-2003 00:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed even in the wake of 9/11, hijackings will always be possible. they're a good deal less likely, not so much because of airport security measures (which, by and large, are there to make you feel better rather than actually providing air security), but because of new regulations coupled with increased numbers of air marshals and more passenger awareness. however, it is always possible, even if fez and yavoon say it's not. until recently, we had blind spots in baggage screening, for instance. where there's a will, there is a way, and only constant vigilance will prevent hijacker's success.

umm dont lump me in w/ fez. I said that they increased the controls on getting into the cockpit. jesus. and its very easy to simply say "well anything is possible." thats not all that astounding of a position.

	01-08-2003 00:58									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II It may not be what they intended, but 9/11 Round 2 won't change the results...

I think Al-Qaeda and Talibans are more like the Chinese Boxers: a last hurrah of extremists of an ancient culture.

	01-08-2003 01:55									#51
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quote: Sava, is that information classified, or why it hasn't been told , or is it some leftist propaganda?

It has been told. Read a book!

	01-08-2003 02:20									#52
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it's far more than "anything is possible".

to hijack a plane, all it takes is carelessness on the part of the crew, or the passengers. american memories are short; we tend to like our conveniences. i don't doubt that some time in the relatively near future, our security will be lessened simply because we've decided that we're safe again...

even now, going through the security, there are numerous ways to get weapons by the guards. future terrorists with plans like mohammed atta could conceivably have their bags matched to them, have round trip tickets, have a valid passport and could have purchased their tickets well in advanced, bypassing much of what we're checking.
it's a simple matter of them striking when we are not vigilant, and instead of using metal blades, who knows what they could use? extremely flammable alcohol in wine bottles, and turning them into molotov cocktails en route, for instance.

can we prevent that? can we?

	01-08-2003 02:25									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it's far more than "anything is possible". to hijack a plane, all it takes is carelessness on the part of the crew, or the passengers. american memories are short; we tend to like our conveniences. i don't doubt that some time in the relatively near future, our security will be lessened simply because we've decided that we're safe again... even now, going through the security, there are numerous ways to get weapons by the guards. future terrorists with plans like mohammed atta could conceivably have their bags matched to them, have round trip tickets, have a valid passport and could have purchased their tickets well in advanced, bypassing much of what we're checking. it's a simple matter of them striking when we are not vigilant, and instead of using metal blades, who knows what they could use? extremely flammable alcohol in wine bottles, and turning them into molotov cocktails en route, for instance. can we prevent that? can we?

well if u r really responding to me. then I don't know how any of that gets them into the cockpit. but if u r generalizing. yes its very hard to stop ppl from blowing **** up.

	01-08-2003 04:05									#54
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quote: well if u r really responding to me. then I don't know how any of that gets them into the cockpit. but if u r generalizing. yes its very hard to stop ppl from blowing **** up.

it doesn't need to get into the cockpit. if it's anything like the fluid used in the recent daegu subway disaster, it could easily flash-fry most of the people aboard, as well as damage the plane itself.

	01-08-2003 04:10									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: well if u r really responding to me. then I don't know how any of that gets them into the cockpit. but if u r generalizing. yes its very hard to stop ppl from blowing **** up. it doesn't need to get into the cockpit. if it's anything like the fluid used in the recent daegu subway disaster, it could easily flash-fry most of the people aboard, as well as damage the plane itself.

that still wouldn't lead to a 9-11. there's better ways to kill a few hundred ppl if u already have the means. then to try and sneak those means onto an airplane.

	01-08-2003 11:19									#56
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As for that Pennsylvania flight.

If it was shot down it would have landed more horizontally and not vertically.

The plane disintigrated. The plane was going straight down when it hit.

	01-08-2003 17:26									#57
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quote: that still wouldn't lead to a 9-11. there's better ways to kill a few hundred ppl if u already have the means. then to try and sneak those means onto an airplane.

a terrorist attack does not have to be a 9-11. burn the cabin, and one can force a way into the cockpit. or burn the cockpit, and take the plane down.
you and fez were both saying it would be impossible to hijack a plane in the wake of 9-11, and the simple fact of the matter is that it's not impossible.
only by keeping vigilant will we be able to prevent future disasters.