03-08-2003 10:20									#271
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quote: I can't condone what East Germany did, but they were hemoraging and had to do something to survive.

You mean something like holding free elections, and allowing people to toss out the pro-Soviet communists?

	03-08-2003 10:22									#272
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Since the Soviet Union wasn't about to let them do that, they had to find another option.

	03-08-2003 10:23									#273
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Oh, so because the Soviet Union wouldn't let them do the RIGHT thing, they were obligated to do the WRONG thing?

These people were GERMANS, not East Germans. The right thing to do, given the situation, was to simply wink at letting as many Germans travel to the free(r) portion of Germany as wanted to go.

	03-08-2003 10:26									#274
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quote: Why should Cubans be different?

Because it is hard to get Cuban national team baseball players?

(though with the crap that is Contreras, maybe that will ebb )

	03-08-2003 10:31									#275
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, so because the Soviet Union wouldn't let them do the RIGHT thing, they were obligated to do the WRONG thing?

Do you ever think?

	03-08-2003 10:32									#276
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I'm simply asking you if hemming people into a city they don't want to be in is right, just because another country says you have to do it.

	03-08-2003 10:33									#277
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quote: Do you ever think?

	03-08-2003 10:33									#278
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And by the way, straight answers are appreciated.

	03-08-2003 10:47									#279
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'm simply asking you if hemming people into a city they don't want to be in is right, just because another country says you have to do it.

What would the USSR's reaction have been? Look at what happened to East Berlin in 1953 and Hungary in 1956. They had to make the best out of a bad situation, they had to try and create a viable country while being occupied as a result of their crimes against humanity. Let's not forget these Germans had just murderd 25 million Soviets. The USSR was in no mood to put up with uppity Germans.

	03-08-2003 10:52									#280
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I understand that. I also understand that many of the people being punished when the Wall went up had nothing to do with the "crimes against humanity", and that the Wall went up 15 years after the end of the war. I'm saying that the East German government should have stood up to the Soviets on behalf of the Germans within the borders of East Germany.

The action that East German troops took against Peter Fechter, for example, were certainly wrong, and could easily have been stopped.

I'm not saying any of this is what could reasonably have happened, I am simply saying that this is what a non-self serving government should and would have done.

	03-08-2003 10:58									#281
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'm not saying any of this is what could reasonably have happened, I am simply saying that this is what a non-self serving government should and would have done.

Let's try and stick to the realm of reason, shall we?

Frankly, East Germany should have tried something similar, offered money and good jobs to West Germans who wanted to come over. Course the West probably would have sent a lot of spies and saboteurs over more easily.

You tend to forget that the West was deliberately trying to undermine the East, indirectly through enticing the professionals away and directly through sabotage and terrorist attacks. Had the East responded in kind, at least as far as the latter goes, it probably would have brought about a war.

	03-08-2003 11:08									#282
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quote: Frankly, East Germany should have tried something similar, offered money and good jobs to West Germans who wanted to come over. Course the West probably would have sent a lot of spies and saboteurs over more easily.

Now I'm not one to defend the West during the Cold War, but seriously. Living in a Soviet dominated communist state was much worse than living in a US dominated semi-capitalist state.

quote: You tend to forget that the West was deliberately trying to undermine the East, indirectly through enticing the professionals away and directly through sabotage and terrorist attacks.

Again, I'm not going to defend the West, just as I won't defend the East or the Soviets.

But right now, the topic has to do with the actions of East Germany, not West Germany. And East Germany's acts of building the Berlin Wall, shooting Peter Fechter, etc., were wrong.

Quite frankly, both partitions should have worked for freedom, especially free elections, and the US and the Soviets should have ended their military occupation/domination MUCH earlier.

	03-08-2003 11:22									#283
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Frankly, East Germany should have tried something similar, offered money and good jobs to West Germans who wanted to come over. Course the West probably would have sent a lot of spies and saboteurs over more easily.

What would east germany have had to offer? And the DDR sent a lot of spies under the cover of of migration.

"You tend to forget that the West was deliberately trying to undermine the East, indirectly through enticing the professionals away"

So 3 million people were all enticed by the West? Now that's a lot of bureaucratic work.

"and directly through sabotage and terrorist attacks."

Like?

	03-08-2003 11:24									#284
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Anyone around here noticed that, when you put a battery on metal, it heats up really fast?

	03-08-2003 11:24									#285
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "and directly through sabotage and terrorist attacks." Like?

Burning East Berlin's bus fleet, blowing up railroad tracks and bridges, etc.

	03-08-2003 11:30									#286
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"Burning East Berlin's bus fleet, blowing up railroad tracks and bridges, etc."

When? Where? Who?

	03-08-2003 11:53									#287
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One of these days, Che, I hope you realize that Communism is a lie. You actually seem to believe Communist propaganda.

	03-08-2003 12:16									#288
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Burning East Berlin's bus fleet, blowing up railroad tracks and bridges, etc." When? Where? Who?

Too tired now. Respond later.

	03-08-2003 12:17									#289
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One of these days, Ned, I hope you realize that Capitalism is a lie. You actually seem to believe Captialist propaganda.

Seriously, what, do you think I'm some elaborate troll? Of course I believe in communism!

	03-08-2003 12:35									#290
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Too tired now. Respond later.

I actually expected some claims of CIA operations in the 1950s and the good old subway bomb story...

	03-08-2003 12:37									#291
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One of these days, Ned, I hope you realize that Capitalism is a lie. You actually seem to believe Captialist propaganda. Seriously, what, do you think I'm some elaborate troll? Of course I believe in communism!

Che, you seem like an intelligent person. So there is still hope.

Get some sleep. See you tomorrow.

	03-08-2003 12:42									#292
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As for Cuba's emigration policy:

http://usembassy.state.gov/havana/wwwhacco.html

"Cuba pledged to discourage irregular and unsafe departures."

Hmm...

	03-08-2003 14:05									#293
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler As for Cuba's emigration policy: http://usembassy.state.gov/havana/wwwhacco.html "Cuba pledged to discourage irregular and unsafe departures." Hmm...

HO, Thanks for that link.