31-07-2003 17:46									#1
	Bush coddles Castro, betrays liberty Increase the size of your Attachments

On the news last night I saw a report where the US Coast Guard intercepted a homemade boat 50 mi. off the coast of Cuba. The boat was filled with refugees fleeing to the United States. The Coast Guard took all on board, burned and sunk the boat, and then returned the refugees to Cuba for eventual trial and possible execution by the ruthless Castro government.

I understand that the Coast Guard acted pursuant to a government policy on returning refugees captured at sea. The commentators said that Bush was personally responsible for this policy and noted that in the entire history of refugees fleeing East Germany over the Berlin Wall that not once did the United States return any refugees to the East Germans.

Since George Bush is personally responsible for this horrendous policy, all I can say is that you, George Bush, have betrayed liberty and have betrayed the United States. You coddle the Cuban dictator Castro just as much as did Janet Reno, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. George Bush, go to hell.

	31-07-2003 17:49									#2
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Bush isn't, Ned. That's the law, and has been.

	31-07-2003 17:53									#3
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Ned..

9.32/10

	31-07-2003 17:55									#4
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Slowhand, you have to be kidding. This law is so offensive to the very idea of America that I find it incredible that Congress could ever have passed such a law.

	31-07-2003 18:01									#5
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I find it very unlikely that Cuba will execute them. While Cuba do have death penalty, it's as far as I know, not used on common refugees.

	31-07-2003 18:06									#6
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It doesn't matter how you find it, Ned.
The point of your thread, and my counter-point is, it isn't Bush.

	31-07-2003 18:09									#7
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At least Cuba doesn't execute under 18's and the mentally ill...........

	31-07-2003 18:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The commentators said that Bush was personally responsible for this policy and noted that in the entire history of refugees fleeing East Germany over the Berlin Wall that not once did the United States return any refugees to the East Germans.

exactly!
personally resonsible or not, George Bush Senior and any President before him would have never allowed such a thing.

shame on W

	31-07-2003 18:16									#9
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Bullshit.

	31-07-2003 18:22									#10
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Isn't it obvious? Those people were too smart to be allowed into the US.

	31-07-2003 18:23									#11
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no bullshit. and I know what I´m talking about. I saw how much afford, work and money the allies (especially the US) spent to take East German refugees and political prisoneers.

	31-07-2003 18:26									#12
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Yeah, but Soviet Russia was always more fun to annoy. They'd get all hot-headed and bang their shoes on desks. Really, a good show. Castro just doesn't seem to care anymore.

	31-07-2003 18:29									#13
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It is bullshit. This isn't a Bush thing, no matter how many times you repeat it to yourself.

I'm surprised at Ned.
This is the uninformed kind of claptrap Che would dream up.

	31-07-2003 18:31									#14
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In my mind, it doesn't matter WHO is responsible....those people asked for our help by taking the RISK to build a boat (out of an old Chevy truck, as I recall), had the ingenuity to make it work, and their reward?

We sank it and sent them packing.

That's not the behavior of a country I'd be proud to call home, and no matter "who's fault," that's the crux of the matter.

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2003 18:33									#15
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Oh, Christ. Check out Mexicans, if you want to weep.

	31-07-2003 18:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by oedo exactly! personally resonsible or not, George Bush Senior and any President before him would have never allowed such a thing. shame on W

Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been US policy since at least the days of JFK. But don't think it just applies to Cubans. It applies to any refuges found trying to enter the US by the sea. If they are found at sea headed for the US, they are returned to the country origin and any makeshift vessel that they might be using is sunk as a navigational hazzard.

Are you too young to remember all the flap over the Haitian refuges? The ones we put in camps at Gitmo before we shipped them back? Have you forgotten about Elian? Have you forgotten that he was taken by Federal troops (which btw had no jurisdiction in a state custidy suit) and return him to Cuba?

We have been doing this for years. The only thing "special" about Cubans is that if them manage to get one foot on American soil before they are caught, they are automatically granted political asylum.

You, and which ever reporter filed the report, need to actually find out about what you are going to say before you make wild and unfounded statements.

	31-07-2003 18:36									#17
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Cuban's have it better than anyone. ANYONE.

	31-07-2003 18:36									#18
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Actually, I think I have it a bit better than most Cubans.

	31-07-2003 18:37									#19
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Mexico isn't a communist dictatorship tho, is it? Nor does that statement change the fact that it's fairly easy to get here from Mexico....not as much risk....pretty easy to swim the river...create a distration and you're in.

Not quite so easy to escape from Cuba and get here tho, true?

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2003 18:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx In my mind, it doesn't matter WHO is responsible....those people asked for our help by taking the RISK to build a boat (out of an old Chevy truck, as I recall), had the ingenuity to make it work, and their reward? We sank it and sent them packing. That's not the behavior of a country I'd be proud to call home, and no matter "who's fault," that's the crux of the matter. -=Vel=-

Do you have any idea of the thousands and thousands of people who attempt this every year. It is nothing more than another attempt at illegal immigration. On top of that, if you allow the people to be brought here if they are found at sea, it will only serve to encourage more people to take the chance and cause even more deaths. The number of people that die attempting this is not casual. It is a lose/lose type of thing.

	31-07-2003 18:41									#21
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It's the cubans own fault that they live on an island. If they would have been as smart as the mexicans, that live on the continent, they wouldn't have had this problem. Would they? It's in the interest of the united states to have smart immigrants, not morons that live on an island.

And damn it, couldn't we have a decent damn smiley, not some dork with a stupid hat!

	31-07-2003 18:43									#22
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Yes, I am aware of the numbers, and I fully realize that this is not an isolated case.

Cuba is a small country, with a small population. Lose those thousands each year and the nation cannot sustain itself (nobody much left to sustain). But yes, let's turn back the clock by all means and ship all the East Germans back, too. Let's send everybody packing who seeks asylum from governments they do not want to be a part of.

That takes a ton of courage, don't it?

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2003 18:47									#23
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DaShi, that's the kind of dumbass remark I've come to expect from you.
Thanks for being dependable.

	31-07-2003 18:48									#24
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Further, isn't it a shade inconsistent to be soooooooo concerned for the oppressed Iraqui people that we're willing to go in guns blazing, risking American blood and American lives for their liberation from oppression, but we turn back people trying to escape a similar oppression (even tho letting them in poses no risk to us or our troops)? You don't find those two positions at odds with each other? Not even a little?

But of course, Cuba doesn't have anything we want, and didn't make the "Axis of Evil" cut, so we haven't gone in guns blazing, and they can just rot in their oppression, right?

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2003 18:55									#25
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Slowhand, I am simply repeating what I saw on the news. They said Bush was responsible. Now, if the law generally is to treat these folks as if they were "illegal" immigrants instead of refugees from a police state, then the law is wrong or the implementation of the law is wrong.

Yes, we remember the Gestapo-like actions of Janet Reno and the child refugee Elian. Janet Reno so alienated the Cuban population of Florida that she single-handedly cost Gore the election.

	31-07-2003 19:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Further, isn't it a shade inconsistent to be soooooooo concerned for the oppressed Iraqui people that we're willing to go in guns blazing, risking American blood and American lives for their liberation from oppression, but we turn back people trying to escape a similar oppression (even tho letting them in poses no risk to us or our troops)? You don't find those two positions at odds with each other? Not even a little? But of course, Cuba doesn't have anything we want, and didn't make the "Axis of Evil" cut, so we haven't gone in guns blazing, and they can just rot in their oppression, right? -=Vel=-

Vel, I agree. If Bush was not personally responsible for this, he should fix it immediately. It offends our concepts of decency, at a minimum.

	31-07-2003 19:15									#27
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Amen, Ned. The fact of the matter is, The Shrub started down this path already, by invading Afghanistan, then invading Iraq. It is inconsistent with his own policies to turn back refugees from Cuba (not exactly a long-time friend of the US). It flies in the face of his existing policies and weakens his position.

If we're going to do it, if we're going to stand tough against the boogeymen, then that includes Cuba, and taking people under our wing for reasons of political asylum is NOT the same as illegal immigration. Wasn't in East Germany, and it's not here.

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2003 19:22									#28
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quote: Yes, we remember the Gestapo-like actions of Janet Reno and the child refugee Elian. Janet Reno so alienated the Cuban population of Florida that she single-handedly cost Gore the election.

Too bad Reno was right. Funny how family values types were so quick to allow a kid's uncles and aunts kidnap him from his father.

The Miami Cuban exiles are so rabid and nutty I doubt they would have voted for Gore anyway.

	31-07-2003 19:26									#29
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Boris, you're a thinking dude, buddy.

	31-07-2003 19:29									#30
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Was she right to act without a court order while the matter was still pending before the courts? Was she right to invade a private resident with the military?

Further, why was the US government taking the side of Fidel Castro and not the side of the boy in this affair?