01-08-2003 04:31									#31
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I don't think the progressives wanted to legalize toppling the government for personal gain. That's essentially what the guy who funded the recall is trying to do.

Frankly, I don't like recall votes. I agree that they lead to too much campaigning, and a bit too much pandering to the people (as opposed to Senators who can be brave their first 4 years and pander in their last 2). That said, that's precisely what the progressives wanted- the ability to topple the government anytime it went out of touch with the people. The fact that one person was the main funder doesn't change the fact that there is, in fact, widespread discontent with Governor Davis. The progressives would be all in favor of getting rid of a governor with such low approval ratings.

Now, if one person funded a recall attempt and polls showed 60% of people liking the governor, and he still somehow managed to get the required signatures, then I can sympathize that this is against the spirit of the law.

	01-08-2003 05:51									#32
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Check out the comments from Willie Brown, Democrat Mayor of San Francisco, on why Davis is unpopular even among Democrats.

I personally hope both Schwarzenegger and Feinstein run. Both are high quality people I could vote for. If either won, I would be happy.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../31/MN82766.DTL

	01-08-2003 11:00									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Now, if one person funded a recall attempt and polls showed 60% of people liking the governor, and he still somehow managed to get the required signatures, then I can sympathize that this is against the spirit of the law.

The required signiatures are 13% of the people who bothered to vote in the last election. It was something like 900,000 in a state with 30 million people... think about that, 3% of the population was enough to force a recall vote. While, I'm not going to try to defend Davis, the recall and the way it is happening is no good.

Right now, you can have a fairly reasonable chance at becomming governor by paying $3,500, getting 65 signiatures, and legally changing your name to Arnold Schwarzeneger (note the different spelling). Depending on where your name ended up on the ballot, you might be able to confuse enough voters to defeat the other hundreds of candidates.

	01-08-2003 11:09									#34
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quote: I personally hope both Schwarzenegger and Feinstein run.

I don't want Arnie to run. I want to see Terminator 4, King Conan, etc.

	01-08-2003 11:17									#35
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Riordan is who I want to see win this.. Arnold is bowing out is he not?

	01-08-2003 11:38									#36
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I'm pretty sure that if I really, really wanted, I could get my name onto that recall election ballot (this would be really, really sad).

You are insane. The easier it is to become a candidate, the better democracy works.

	01-08-2003 12:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's a loop hole and you know it Imran. Even if you can't bring yourself to admite it.

It's not a loophole at all. The state has already had an assembly recall, the state has confirmation elections for judges, and even justices of the state Supreme Court. A CEO of any business doesn't have a free ride for four years once hired - if the shareholder approval is low enough, and there's enough support for a change, that CEO is replaced.

Davis presides over an organization with a 100 billion annual budget, tens of billions in each of special purpose reserve funds, physical assets, and debt, tens of thousands of employees (well over 100,000 in total). That organization, through it's delivery or failure to deliver services, through it's mandates to local government, through it's taxes and regulatory policies, affects the standard of living of every Californian, and millions of people outside the state who are impacted by the fiscal and economic performance of the state government, and of the businesses and residents here.

So how many more people should lose their jobs, how many more businesses should move, how much more should people have their quality of life put at risk because of the anti-democratic notion that this ******* foisted upon us in the last election should have a free ride to let his incompetence and lack of vision damage the state for four years? The people did not re-elect Gray Davis, the people were given two choices in the general election, Davis, or an even more complete moron. The average voter has no access to, no influence on, and no contact with the local offices of the two major political parties - who focus on whoring themselves to various special interests, and the common rabble be damned.

That is why there is so much strident accusation about the evil right wing "stealing" the governorship - because if the common rabble could enforce performance standards on the politicians we're stuck with, the special interests who buy their politician whores can't be guaranteed that their investment will be in office long enough to do their bidding.

Recall the bastard!

	01-08-2003 12:26									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Another issue is the budget deficit and why the budget is ALWAYS late. I mean year after year after year the Republicans and Dems fight over the budget and both refuse to compromise one inch. Do you ever wonder why? I was listening to Capital Public Radio (the NPR affiliate here in Sacramento) and one of the speakers claimed Term Limits which were passed in the 1980's was the roote cause of this disfunctionality. The argument went like before term limits the various high party officials had leverage over the rank in file because you knew the high official would always be around and if the rank and file stepped out of line then he could be black listed and his political career was over. He'd lose all support of the state party and all of the money generated by the state party. Since term limits it people are capped at 8 years in office and it takes 6 years to get to a position of authority. Often times the rank and file can now ignore the party leadership and refuse to do what they tell them (like cut spending in certain areas or raise taxes) because they know the leadership will be out of office by the time the next election rolls around. I thought that was an interesting point. Effectively the state parties are both lead by lame ducks who can't force compromise so the individuals are refusing to ever compromise.

They're full of ****, but neither party likes term limits, because the power of the incumbency allows special interest groups to buy their politicians more cheaply and more reliably. The reason for the budget hangups are the fact that each branch of the legislature has to approve any increase in fees or taxes by a supermajority, and the state has a sharp ideological divide, so the center who could move either way to create that supermajority is too small.

	01-08-2003 12:45									#39
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WEASEL 4 PREZ!

	01-08-2003 12:57									#40
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Wezil hasn't been here for a while.

	01-08-2003 13:30									#41
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Good posts MTG, and I agree completely. These are common problems in one party states especially, and it's nice to see the scumwad power brokers back on their heels for once. Note that the Republican powerbrokers aren't any happier about this than the Dems because they wanted to have Davis drag down the rest of the Dems with him in time for the next election.

	01-08-2003 15:02									#42
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Question - since whoever wins presumably will have less than three years to sort out the current mess and the budget deficit and is likely to get the blame for failing to do so at the next regular election, what serious candidate is stupid enough to run? Is this part of the reason Schwartzenegger isn't running?

	01-08-2003 22:04									#43
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I think all Californians should vote for this girl for their new Governor.

	01-08-2003 23:27									#44
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quote: You are insane. The easier it is to become a candidate, the better democracy works.

There will be over 100 names on that ballot and the one that gains the most votes will win. That means, in theory someone could win with like 1% of the vote. If that is democracy working properly, then I guess democracy sucks pretty badly.

	03-08-2003 06:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis That means, in theory someone could win with like 1% of the vote.

Yes, everyone is going to vote randomly for a name they've never heard of, there will be 100 candidates, and each will get one percent. And I suppose pigs fly on a regular basis where you come from two?

"One pill makes you larger... one pill makes you small..."

	03-08-2003 06:40									#46
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quote: Yes, everyone is going to vote randomly for a name they've never heard of, there will be 100 candidates, and each will get one percent. And I suppose pigs fly on a regular basis where you come from two?

No, but I don't honestly expect any candidate to break 33%. The 1% claim just sounded so much more dramatic.

	03-08-2003 07:26									#47
	Re: Could Republican hopes be dashed in California? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As most of you have heard California will be holding a recall election to decide whither or not to recall Governor Grey Davis (Democrat). The recall election has been pushed by a group of right wing Republicans who've dug up a s century old state law dealing with the removal of corrupt politician from office. So far no one, not even the Republicans, has alleged any corruption has taken place yet the recall election is now set to go ahead any way and Republicans across the state are now rejoicing at the prospects that they could take over the Governor’s Mansion just one year after losing a general election. The Democrats are down but they aren't out yet. In fact the Governor’s office has launched a complex legal challenge claiming that even if the governor was recalled the standing Lt. Governor would assume the office of Governor (as detailed in the state's law dealing with who takes over if the Governor can no longer lead the state) instead of who ever wins the Republican backed replacement election. Davis's lawyers point to a provision of the recall law in which it says a new election for governor will be held "if appropriate". Davis is arguing that a new election would not be appropriate since there is a duly elected legal successor pre the state's successor law. It sounds complex but legal scholars give the governor’s suite a more then 50-50 chance of success; not that it would insure Davis's political survival but it just might block Republican hopes of stealing the election they lost last year.

Oerdin:

May I ask do you live in California? Do you know why this happen? I am sorry to say it is not a republican move to take back the governor seat. It is because the people of california want to get rid of Gray Davis, a man that lies, and does nothing when major crisis comes about. This law suit is going no were, why? Because you have to look at intent, and the recall was meant to replace the governor with someone else not the lt. governor. If the Democratics want to keep the governors office they should put up a major person up and let Gray die.

	03-08-2003 07:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis There will be over 100 names on that ballot and the one that gains the most votes will win. That means, in theory someone could win with like 1% of the vote. If that is democracy working properly, then I guess democracy sucks pretty badly.

First off 100 people have not filled yet, it is that 100 people got the papers to file. You etheir have to pay $3500 plus 65 signitures or just get 10,000 signitures out right. If most people will file, not all 100 will, they will be no name people that will most likely get 100 votes each, big deal. Most people will vote for people they know.

	03-08-2003 07:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's not a loophole at all. The state has already had an assembly recall, the state has confirmation elections for judges, and even justices of the state Supreme Court. A CEO of any business doesn't have a free ride for four years once hired - if the shareholder approval is low enough, and there's enough support for a change, that CEO is replaced. Davis presides over an organization with a 100 billion annual budget, tens of billions in each of special purpose reserve funds, physical assets, and debt, tens of thousands of employees (well over 100,000 in total). That organization, through it's delivery or failure to deliver services, through it's mandates to local government, through it's taxes and regulatory policies, affects the standard of living of every Californian, and millions of people outside the state who are impacted by the fiscal and economic performance of the state government, and of the businesses and residents here. So how many more people should lose their jobs, how many more businesses should move, how much more should people have their quality of life put at risk because of the anti-democratic notion that this ******* foisted upon us in the last election should have a free ride to let his incompetence and lack of vision damage the state for four years? The people did not re-elect Gray Davis, the people were given two choices in the general election, Davis, or an even more complete moron. The average voter has no access to, no influence on, and no contact with the local offices of the two major political parties - who focus on whoring themselves to various special interests, and the common rabble be damned. That is why there is so much strident accusation about the evil right wing "stealing" the governorship - because if the common rabble could enforce performance standards on the politicians we're stuck with, the special interests who buy their politician whores can't be guaranteed that their investment will be in office long enough to do their bidding. Recall the bastard!

	03-08-2003 07:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin This is the only time the law has ever been used. Like I said the Republicans have dug this up and are risking the future of our state simply because they smell a political oppurtunity. It is shameless that our states political stability is being put at risk by a bunch of sore losers.

Wrong, it has been tried 31 times but this is first time it has gotten this far. This is the people of california taking back the government from special interests. Not a "right- wing" take over.

	03-08-2003 07:41									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I personally hope both Schwarzenegger and Feinstein run. I don't want Arnie to run. I want to see Terminator 4, King Conan, etc.

From what I heard Schwarzenegger is not going to run so dont worry.

	03-08-2003 07:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Out of curiosity how many Cali governors have faced recall efforts?

There have been 31 recall efforts of California governors. This is the first one to go to ballot.

quote: Given that this is the first time the effort has born fruit in the state, I'd have to say that Davis has been particularly incompetent at his job.

I'll say, 17 late budgets in a row--12 before Davis even took office as governnor.

The deficits in Califonia are so bad that they've spread out to encompass 47 other states.

And doing business during the energy crisis with Texas energy companies that where later proved to be engaged in a nationwide conspiracy to defraud California! Why oh why did Davis ever assume they were honest just because they were friends of the President and Vice President??

	03-08-2003 08:09									#53
	Re: Re: Could Republican hopes be dashed in California? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Oerdin: May I ask do you live in California?

Yes he does. He may not be able to answer right away. He's at a 'Poly meet in San Diego--where I wish I was.

quote: Do you know why this happen[ed]? I am sorry to say it is not a republican move to take back the governor seat.

Well, actually it is. The recall was bankrolled by a right-wing Republican named Issa, who has done an excellent job at hanging this Republican-caused fiasco on Davis. [/quote]

quote: It is because the people of california want to get rid of Gray Davis, a man that lies,

...oops, that's the Republican line on Clinton. The Republican line on Davis is that's he's incompetent...

quote: and does nothing when major crisis comes about

Remember during the energy crisis when major blackouts were predicted for last summer and this summer. Seen any?? How about his getting a balanced budget while dealing with a psycho-Republican minority who refused to allow any new taxes even in the face of the largest budget crisis since World War II?

quote: This law suit is going no were, why? Because you have to look at intent, and the recall was meant to replace the governor with someone else not the lt. governor.

Not true. The law for recalling mayors calls for a special election to replace them. The recall law for the governor only says an election for a replace is to be held if appropriate, i.e. if the lieutenant govenor is also recalled or the office is unfilled.

quote: If the Democratics want to keep the governors office they should put up a major person up and let Gray die.

My guess is that they will wait until about Aug 6th. If the polls show Davis will survive, then the vote will go forward. If the polls show Davis is behind, he'll resign and let Lt. Gov. Bustamante have the job.

	03-08-2003 09:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler The deficits in Califonia are so bad that they've spread out to encompass 47 other states.

And California's exceeds that of the other 47 states combined. California also has the highest aggregate business and personal tax rates, with average or less quality of services in most areas.

quote: And doing business during the energy crisis with Texas energy companies that where later proved to be engaged in a nationwide conspiracy to defraud California!

Actually, it's been shown there's no evidence they conspired with each other, and it's been shown there was no need to. That some fraud occured is a given, however, the biggest perpetrator of fraud in terms of the price level of their abuse of market power was in fact a state agency - DWR.

quote: Why oh why did Davis ever assume they were honest just because they were friends of the President and Vice President??

Perhaps a part of it was that bit about a couple of his staffers who invested heavily in Enron and other energy company shares during the crisis?

Perhaps a part of it is that Davis and his so-called "governor's Green team" sent so many mixed signals and contradicted other state agencies so much, that they turned a lot of non-Enron developers out of the market, due to the state's flakiness.

Perhaps part of it was that Davis was so busy trying to kiss the ass of the CEC and DWR bureacracy that he made all sorts of promises for contracts and inducements to build new capacity to contract to yet another state agency (the newly formed CPA), regardless of the little detail that it lacked the legal authority to do what Davis' office told the independent developers it would do?

	03-08-2003 09:37									#55
	Re: Re: Re: Could Republican hopes be dashed in California? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Well, actually it is. The recall was bankrolled by a right-wing Republican named Issa, who has done an excellent job at hanging this Republican-caused fiasco on Davis.

And Issa wouldn't have bankrolled it if polls didn't indicate a lot of support. Or do you suppose Issa paid all those people who signed?

quote: ...oops, that's the Republican line on Clinton. The Republican line on Davis is that's he's incompetent...

He's both.

quote: Remember during the energy crisis when major blackouts were predicted for last summer and this summer. Seen any??

No. Davis solved the problem by causing a recession and he even controls the weather, giving us two mild summers and a wet winter that recharged a major portion of southwest hydro basins. In fact, if the state had load levels at the same level as the year 2000, and other out of state and WAPA suppliers had similar on-system loads, California would be having blackouts at two to three times the frequency that was experienced in the year 2000. The problem disappeared behind weather and stagnant economic growth, not because it was "solved" but the state still owes billions. Guess what? If the economy booms again, even slightly, and we have drought conditions in the west (that never happens, ) your little crisis is back to bite.

quote: How about his getting a balanced budget while dealing with a psycho-Republican minority who refused to allow any new taxes even in the face of the largest budget crisis since World War II?

Yeah, damn those psycho Republicans, who said enough is enough to perpetual tax increases to pander to an inefficient bloat of special purpose state agencies and a hyper-inefficient state bureaucracy. California already has the highest overall taxes of any state, what it doesn't have is efficient management and fiscal discipline within the state bureaucracies.

quote: Not true. The law for recalling mayors calls for a special election to replace them. The recall law for the governor only says an election for a replace is to be held if appropriate, i.e. if the lieutenant govenor is also recalled or the office is unfilled. My guess is that they will wait until about Aug 6th. If the polls show Davis will survive, then the vote will go forward. If the polls show Davis is behind, he'll resign and let Lt. Gov. Bustamante have the job.

Read the relevant sections of the California Elections Code. You are wrong. If Davis resigns, his appointed replacement will only serve until the recall, UNLESS the recall fails. Otherwise, Bustamante will be gone, and the new governor will have a Lt. Gov slot to fill.

	03-08-2003 09:47									#56
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Could Republican hopes be dashed in California? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And Issa wouldn't have bankrolled it if polls didn't indicate a lot of support. Or do you suppose Issa paid all those people who signed?

The GOP paid $1 per signiature to people collecting them.

	03-08-2003 10:00									#57
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Actually, the employees of the signature gatherers paid that money, i.e. the campaigns that hired them.

Some nebulous group created by Davis supporters hired signature gatherers and paid them the same rate to do an alternate petition "against the recall" even though it had no legal meaning or effect, and caused confusion (apparently their dumb voters in California are as dumb as their dumb voters in Florida).

One dollar per signature is the standard rate in California nowadays.

And while you're on the subject of money, Davis is playing the semantic game that state campaign finance laws don't apply to him, since he's not techinically "a candidate for elective office" so he's hustling $100,000 plus checks from a few rich patrons, while state law limits personal contributions to candidates to $21,000 per individual donor.

	03-08-2003 11:09									#58
	Re: Re: Re: Could Republican hopes be dashed in California? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Yes he does. He may not be able to answer right away. He's at a 'Poly meet in San Diego--where I wish I was. Well, actually it is. The recall was bankrolled by a right-wing Republican named Issa, who has done an excellent job at hanging this Republican-caused fiasco on Davis. ...oops, that's the Republican line on Clinton. The Republican line on Davis is that's he's incompetent... Remember during the energy crisis when major blackouts were predicted for last summer and this summer. Seen any?? How about his getting a balanced budget while dealing with a psycho-Republican minority who refused to allow any new taxes even in the face of the largest budget crisis since World War II? Not true. The law for recalling mayors calls for a special election to replace them. The recall law for the governor only says an election for a replace is to be held if appropriate, i.e. if the lieutenant govenor is also recalled or the office is unfilled. My guess is that they will wait until about Aug 6th. If the polls show Davis will survive, then the vote will go forward. If the polls show Davis is behind, he'll resign and let Lt. Gov. Bustamante have the job.

First off I am not a Republican, I am not a democratic etheir. This recall has the support of both Democratic, Republican and independent voters. Even Bustamante and everyone in state government, accept of course for old Gray knows that their is suppost to be a recall and election.

You want to raise taxes in a recession and drive more bussiness out of the state? That is just plain insane. NOt all government spending is necessary and their is a lot of waste. Like a 37% pay raise for prison guards.

The "if appropriate" clause is applies for judges and other apointed officals, also you have to look at the intent as well.

	03-08-2003 11:17									#59
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One thing I dont get is this paid signature gatherers thing. THe recall is bad because the people who gathered the signatures were paid? EVERYONE uses paid signature gatherers, even that phony support Davis petition that they worded to make people think they were signing for the recall.

	03-08-2003 14:55									#60
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VOTE GREEN IN CALIFORNIA!!!

Fvck all y'alls other muthas.