01-08-2003 03:20									#1
	Situation with CDG - why they didn't die last turn Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Just to quickly update people on the situation:

we could have, agreed to and originally planned to conquer CDG's last remaining city, the choke-point Shaharazade, last turn (630BC). However, Princess of Apolyton (the Galley SE of CFC) discovered, against all hope, a HUT on the tiny 5-tile island south of the main area we want to explore. We delayed the death of CDG in order to check the hut first, this turn.

The reason we are doing this is becauase, as the turn starts we should receive Polytheism from GCA (traded for our Code of Laws and Mathematics as from an agreement reached). CFC also has Construction that they will trade us (hopefully this turn as well), leaving only Currency to be got before the end of the Era. IF we got Currency from the hut (small chance, admittedly, but still a chance), then we would enter the next Era! Where CDG comes in is that, if we gifted them Polytheism, Construction and Currency, they would enter the new Era too. This would certainly trigger the barbarians at the Era's end, if we had not already done so, which is why units have been moving to minimise the fog-of-war near Poly's cities (barbarians can only emerge from fog-of-war terrain).

Now for the idea - if all this happens, when CDG enters the next era they would get a free advance from their Scientific trait. This advance would be Monotheism, Engineering or Feudalism. Just imagine what a boost it would be getting a Medieval advance free, especially Feudalism! Due to our agreements with CFC and CDG, CDG would gift their advance to each of us.

The one thing to note here from a cautionary side is that if they get Feudalism or Monotheism, CFC would be only two steps away from their UU - the Rider requires Chivalry, which itself requires both of these advances. Which advance ultimately would end up as the free one would open up questions of what to research next and what to get CFC to advance next, but all this part is hypothetical what if stuff.

Since the outcome from huts depends on what orders you carry out before popping it, we could abuse the system and repeatedly try combinations of orders before popping until we get the desired result, but this would be tantamount to cheating, which all teams have agreed against. Thus we will likely open the save, conclude any FAM negotiations and pop the hut immediately before anything else.

It may be an exciting chat, and I for one will be waiting for this save with baited breath...

	01-08-2003 04:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

We'll probably just get an empty hut. But we shouldn't cheat. Cheating is bad.

	01-08-2003 04:18									#3
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart We'll probably just get an empty hut. But we shouldn't cheat. Cheating is bad.

I agree. No cheating!

Hopefully we'll just get lucky.

	01-08-2003 05:28									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

you mean lucky isn't cheating?

i guess we'll have to change our views of GCA then



(don't flame me just trying to lighten the mood around here)

(if you notice im not using capitals then HERES SOME TO MAKE UP FOR THE REST OF THE POST)

(dont you hate it when someone goes from whispering to shouting in one fell swoop?)

	01-08-2003 09:43									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 (dont you hate it when someone goes from whispering to shouting in one fell swoop?)

No, but I hate it when the lettuce on a buger is all hot and wilted.

	01-08-2003 12:27									#6
	Re: Situation with CDG - why they didn't die last turn Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Princess of Apolyton (the Galley SE of CFC)

SW.


So - CDG should remain in the game for at least 2 more turns.

edit: entering the next Era would give some info about our progress to the Lost Civs.

	01-08-2003 19:09									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: edit: entering the next Era would give some info about our progress to the Lost Civs.

yes. But I don't see that as too much of a factor.

	01-08-2003 21:00									#8
	Got spare money?

It would tell them something, sure, but if we beat them there, it might tell them we are to be respected, despite our "score problems."

	01-08-2003 21:04									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's possible they may not realize what the barb uprisings mean.

	01-08-2003 22:11									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmmm, I hope Firaxis at least knows what it means

	01-08-2003 23:31									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The party smilies make everything seem more jovial, don't they?

	02-08-2003 01:10									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The first time I saw the party hat, it was on my post; I thought I had typed something wierd to make it appear. I went to edit it out and realized that it had been changed.

	02-08-2003 01:36									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree this was worth it...even if we dont get it..possbile benefits outway any risks (which are about nil)

	02-08-2003 05:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Have we poped this yet??

E_T

	02-08-2003 06:06									#15
	Support Apolyton

Yes. It popped Currency.

So we get CDG's free tech now (whatever it is)?

	02-08-2003 06:09									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Log from the chat. We Consuls want input. The turn will not be played for at least 4 hours.

quote: [18:09] * Now talking in #ApolytonISDG [18:09] * Topic is 'Apolyton First Comitee - Ban the OT - Preserve avatars and Poly!!! |Trip's Secret Hideout from Society' [18:09] * Set by NuclearisWinterius on Tue Jul 29 21:23:31 [18:09] *nye* allo [18:09] *Trip* heya NYE [18:09] *Trip* you always show up right on time :P [18:09] *ZargonX* hey nye [18:09] * Trip sets mode: +o nye [18:09] *nye* who wants to start minting coins? [18:10] *Trip* CGN is done "killing everybody" it seems :P [18:10] *nye* yes, i got the save just now [18:11] *nye* cfc did not offer construction [18:11] *Trip* gah, oh well [18:11] *Trip* did we get Polytheism? [18:11] *nye* but we got currency [18:11] *nye* yes [18:11] *Trip* Currency? [18:11] *nye* yes [18:11] *Trip* we did? [18:12] *nye* jagjef came through like a trooper [18:12] *Trip* hot damn [18:12] *nye* yes [18:12] *Trip* guess our luck has changed [18:12] *nye* i like those arly boats more and more evey turn [18:12] *Trip* yep [18:12] *nye* i could kiss a monster [18:12] *nye* even a big furry one [18:12] * Trip changes topic to 'Apolyton, Medieval Empire' [18:13] *nye* what do we want to do with the Princess? [18:13] *Trip* 3 tile jig :P [18:15] *Trip* forward that biatch over he'ah :P [18:15] *nye* k [18:15] *Trip* shall I tell CFC? [18:17] *nye* we need togas or mz [18:18] *nye* we need to speak with cdg most importantly [18:18] *Trip* MRex isn't around right now [18:18] *nye* we have 24 hours [18:18] *nye* i don;t want any screw ups on this one [18:19] *Trip* there's not really much to discuss [18:19] *Trip* everyone just forwards everything to CDG [18:19] *ZargonX* we got Currency? [18:19] *ZargonX* awesome [18:19] *ZargonX* and to think I didn't want to go south at first... [18:20] *nye* heh, it could have been 2 tile empty, but... [18:20] * BigFree has joined #apolytonISDG [18:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o BigFree [18:21] *nye* allo, bigfree with currency! [18:21] *nye* i wonder which side of our profiles should go on the coins? [18:22] *BigFree* NICE! [18:22] *BigFree* LOL [18:22] *BigFree* this is so great [18:22] *nye* yes [18:22] *BigFree* did we bet Constuction? [18:22] *BigFree* *get [18:22] *BigFree* wow [18:22] *nye* no, cfc did not send it, the ***** [18:22] *BigFree* doh [18:22] *BigFree* **** [18:22] *nye* we can send poly and currency and hbr to cdg [18:22] *BigFree* that means CDG has to be around another turn [18:22] *nye* cfc can send currency [18:22] *BigFree* do we trust CFC? [18:22] *nye* we offer poly and currency to cfc [18:23] *Trip* why? [18:23] *nye* they reply with construction [18:23] *nye* trip, we have to advance before cdg can offer us the tech [18:23] *BigFree* for them to actually give Contruction to CDG [18:23] *Trip* yes, so we get Construction from them [18:23] *Trip* no need to give them our free Currency, or Poly [18:23] *BigFree* exactly [18:24] *nye* really, they do not get in on it? [18:24] *BigFree* we never said we would give Currency for anything [18:24] *BigFree* screw CFC [18:24] *Trip* or Polytheism [18:24] *BigFree* they can have the fre tech [18:24] *nye* i think that was the direction of the conversation [18:24] *BigFree* they only get the free tech [18:24] *nye* how do they get that? they need currency [18:24] *BigFree* we had a prior deal with CFC for Construction [18:24] *BigFree* only CDG needs it [18:25] *BigFree* We give CDG Currency and Poly [18:25] *nye* let's review the conversation of us with octavian [18:25] *BigFree* CFC gives Construction to us and CDG [18:25] *Trip* hmmm [18:25] *Trip* anyone remember when the first team reached the Med Age in the PTWDG? [18:26] *nye* no [18:26] *BigFree* CFC made a deal a long time ago to give us Construction; since CDG gave them the techs we promised them for Constructon, they want to pull out, however our agreemnt states that we still get Construction. [18:27] *BigFree* CFC still get the "free" tech from CDG, just not Poly or Currency [18:27] *nye* bf, cdg agreed to stay on to get cfc and us into medeival age [18:27] *BigFree* we have no obligation to do so [18:27] *BigFree* exactly [18:27] *BigFree* CFC will get the free tech [18:27] *nye* that means currency to cfc [18:27] *BigFree* nope [18:27] *BigFree* why? [18:27] *nye* bigfree, cdg will give it to them anyway [18:27] *BigFree* we can give the free tech to CFC once they get the others [18:28] *nye* and what will we do about it? [18:28] *BigFree* damn [18:28] *nye* kill them? [18:28] *BigFree* that sucks [18:28] *BigFree* we can talk to CDG about it [18:28] *BigFree* and maybe get compensation from CFC [18:28] *BigFree* IT was our HUT [18:28] *BigFree* OUR Galleys found it [18:28] *BigFree* CFC will owe us [18:29] *nye* yes, cfc will say in their waters. it will never end [18:29] *nye* oh yes, cfc will owe us, big time [18:29] *BigFree* lets ask CFC for compensation, what harm can it do? [18:29] *nye* queer the deal? [18:29] *nye* with cdg [18:30] *BigFree* no, just explain to CFC that they are getting two free twechs from us [18:30] *nye* it would need to be handeled very delicately [18:30] *BigFree* true [18:30] *nye* i would want trip and mz to talk to them, and only trip and mz [18:30] *BigFree* as it is now, Apolyton is one tech form the next age [18:31] *BigFree* CFC is three [18:31] *nye* true [18:31] *nye* let's read what was said to octavian, shall we? [18:31] *BigFree* do we want to give up that advantage only for obtaing a free tech? [18:31] *Trip* we've almost surpassed Grenouille in score [18:31] *BigFree* Maybe we should reconsider giving tech to CDG.... [18:32] *Trip* Grenouille's score hasn't been rising as much the past few turns as it was 10 turns ago... [18:32] *BigFree* Or do wee need CFC to destroy GCA wiith us? [18:32] *BigFree* Or do we fear CFC getting closer to the "Rider's" [18:32] *BigFree* This is a tough choice [18:33] *Trip* Grenouille's score was rising 3 per turn before, and now it's only about 1 per turn [18:34] *BigFree* Thye are being manhandled by eithe GWT or Netolia then [18:34] * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Showering [18:34] *BigFree|Showering* be back in 15 [18:34] *Trip* not necessarily [18:35] *Trip* they could have stopped growing [18:35] *Trip* at the beginning of the game the scores are flat, because you're not growing at all [18:35] *Trip* the scores you see are really averages [18:35] *nye* Togas* you know, with an alliance between us, and tech sharing, we could get into the middle ages, get feudalism before GCA, and end this war very quickly. [18:35] *Trip* so as a civ continues expanding the average gets bumped up turn by turn, even if you aren't growing in size [18:35] *Trip* however, that eventually tapers off as the average nears the real per-turn score [18:36] *nye* Togas* OK, I've been cleared to tell you the following information: [18:36] *nye* Togas* we have found a goodie hut. [18:36] *nye* Togas* We have aquired Polytheism. [18:36] *nye* Togas* We are about to pop the hut and are praying for Curency [18:36] *nye* Togas* IF we get it, we want to give Poly, Currency, and YOUR construction to CDG before we take their last city [18:36] *nye* Togas* we would do this next turn. [18:36] *nye* Togas* assuming we get currency, of course. [18:36] *nye* Togas* it would result in CDG getting Feudalism, which we'd give to you [18:40] *nye* ... [18:40] *nye* i don't think we have much choice [18:41] *nye* it will be another turn before cdg can offer us tech, btwe [18:41] *nye* we give them techs [18:41] *nye* cfc gives them tech [18:41] *nye* their next turn, neither cfc nor us are medeival, so they cannot offer us tech [18:42] *nye* so we get their tech the turn after that [18:42] *nye* do we want to string this out? [18:42] * WhiteBandit has joined #ApolytonISDG [18:42] *WhiteBandit* holy crap, we got currency eh?? [18:42] * Trip sets mode: +o WhiteBandit [18:42] *nye* how else do we get constr out of cfc? [18:44] *nye* yes, wb [18:44] *nye* trip, what do you think? [18:44] *Trip* not sure, I'm thinking about it [18:44] *nye* ok. we have time [18:45] *Trip* we may be able to get Constr from CFC, or we may not [18:45] *nye* well, if we move forward, we get constru and a me tech [18:45] *Trip* we COULD tell CFC we DIDN'T get Currency [18:45] *nye* they could detect the lie [18:48] *Trip* we need to have CDG trade us their map again [18:48] *nye* why? [18:48] *nye* barbs near HoD? [18:49] *Trip* yep [18:49] *nye* there is a camp showing 8 8 8 7 of Yun Quiling [18:49] *Trip* it could be gone [18:49] *Trip* CFC had an elite Horse in that area [18:51] *Trip* brb [18:51] *nye* i'll be a round [18:53] * WhiteBandit is now known as WB|Morrowind [18:56] *BigFree|Showering* CFC alreadt agreed to give us Construction for CoL + Philo; the got those two from CDG, but our agreement requires them to still give us Construction. No where in Togas letter to CFC does he say we would give Poly and Currency to CFC; He ONLY said CDG. We then promised to give the "free" tech to CFC. Now if CFC has to aquie a few techs before htta happens, that is their problem to deal with. Maybe they want to make a [18:57] *Trip* well, we need to sort this out one way or the other [18:57] *BigFree|Showering* agreed, that is whta I'm trying to do [18:57] * BigFree|Showering is now known as BigFree [18:58] *nye* bf, cdg will give them the techs [18:58] *nye* cdg wants us both to be as fit as possible [18:59] *BigFree* We tell CFC that we need Construction from them ASAP! Actually we tell them to gift it to CDG; while we gift Polytheism and Currency to CDG. Then CDG makes the next age, gets a free tech and in turn gifts it to us. We then march into their last city, story over. [18:59] *nye* as of now, we are not getting construc from cfc, except for the coversation where togas offered them currency and poly [18:59] *nye* with my approval [18:59] *BigFree* where did he offer it? [18:59] *BigFree* I dont see it? [18:59] *nye* chat [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* OK, I've been cleared to tell you the following information: [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* we have found a goodie hut. [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* We have aquired Polytheism. [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* We are about to pop the hut and are praying for Curency [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* IF we get it, we want to give Poly, Currency, and YOUR construction to CDG before we take their last city [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* we would do this next turn. [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* assuming we get currency, of course. [18:59] *nye* *nye* Togas* it would result in CDG getting Feudalism, which we'd give to you [19:00] *BigFree* exactly [19:00] *BigFree* he said CDG [19:00] *BigFree* not C FC [19:00] *nye* i think that implies they get currency too, no? [19:00] *BigFree* nope [19:00] *BigFree* not at all [19:00] *nye* ok. cdg will still give it to them [19:00] *BigFree* they might, unless we talk to them [19:00] *BigFree* try to explain about prior tech agreements [19:01] *BigFree* and that we are only gving Poly and Currency away in order to obtain the "free" tech [19:01] *nye* cdg won;t give a damn [19:01] *Trip* we should try to keep Currency and Poly away from CFC, but shouldn't push too hard [19:01] *nye* they want gca hurt [19:01] *BigFree* they may listen and want to play fairly [19:01] *nye* anything that hurts gca, they will do [19:01] *Trip* if CFC gets bitter they could say "screw it, we won't let ANY of us get to the next age" [19:01] *Trip* CFC getting the techs free isn't TOO horrible [19:01] *BigFree* Ok, that is an option too [19:01] *Trip* we still have 2x their economy, and have Republic soon [19:01] *BigFree* I mean we are only one tech away [19:02] *BigFree* CFC is 3 [19:02] *nye* we could just finish of cdg and sail on [19:02] *BigFree* eacatly [19:02] *BigFree* it might be better [19:02] *nye* however, cfc is close to peace with gca [19:02] *Trip* Veera said that most of CfC did not favor peace now [19:02] *BigFree* tell CFC they didnt give us construction this turn, so we thought they reneged on the deal [19:02] *nye* they could do it, and get poly for philo and lit [19:03] *BigFree* hellno, GCA wont give them those techs [19:03] *nye* or worse, give gca mapmaking [19:03] *BigFree* GCA is the boss right now [19:03] *BigFree* theymight demand MM [19:03] *nye* gca wants peace for tech trades, bf [19:03] *BigFree* but they will not give CFC techs [19:03] *nye* they propsed peace for trades, bf [19:03] *BigFree* possibly MM for Poly [19:04] *nye* so, how determined are we to keep cfc from a couple techs? [19:04] *BigFree* That is the question [19:04] *BigFree* do we trust them [19:04] *BigFree* will they suddenly side with GCA? [19:05] *nye* maybe, but why would they? [19:05] *nye* gca is where they need to go [19:05] *BigFree* What if we give all the techs to CDG and they get the free tech and they gift only to CFC; then we are screwed.... [19:05] *BigFree* I admit thats not likely [19:05] *BigFree* but possible [19:05] *nye* very unlikely [19:06] *nye* but a possible reason to just end this [19:06] *BigFree* I will let you decide this one, Im on the fence [19:06] *nye* ok [19:06] *nye* i want to hear from more people [19:06] *BigFree* Maybe we can force CFC into waiting on us for the war.... [19:06] *BigFree* Make them sign an agreemnt [19:07] *nye* i am going to post the log of this, to seek input

	02-08-2003 07:11									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I would almost think it would be worth it to just forget about the free tech and kill CDG, get construction from CFC, prepare for a war against both, in case they declare peace and ally against us. Trading techs like this where CFC gets a free currency and next age tech is just...probably not good for us in the long run. Feudalism would let us have mi's instead of swords, but our nms are as good as pikes.

Wouldn't it be great to hit GCA right after the hordes hit them first? Might be possible if we can keep another civ from entering the next age for a few turns.

	02-08-2003 08:53									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

There has been a development.

GF approached us and informed us that everyone is quitting cdg. They are prepared to let him play the civ. He is offering to accept vassalage to Apolyton.

	02-08-2003 13:56									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither [18:34] * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Showering [18:34] *BigFree|Showering* be back in 15 ... [18:57] * BigFree|Showering is now known as BigFree

That was one long shower! But it's great to chat at the same time..!

What is meant by "vassalage" ? GF wants to "join" Poly while still playing CDG?

edit: ah - I got it from the other thread.

	04-08-2003 03:22									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Update: with CFC being stubborn and arrogant it looked as if this turn we would just end CDG in disgust af CFC, and because it seemed that every CDGer but Ghengis wanted out and the freedom to join another team NOW. However, there is controversy at the UN about whether anyone is allowed to join another team. There is talk of a 20 turn stand-down period from the end of the civ, or at least a discussion and poll which will b e lengthy. Ghengis also told us we can belay the CDG mercy-killing for one more turn until he can confer with his team on whether they will hold on for a short time yet, despite the fact that all CDG units have reportedly been disbanded last turb.

Because of these new devlopments we have not administered the lethal dose yet, and we have a short time to try to convince CFC to play ball with a reasonable offer for Construction. It is possible (although IMO unlikely) we will convince them to trade on fairer terms and we can gift all we need to to CDG, and get Feudalism. We may well do this even if it ensures Currency and Feudalism go to CFC as well (although we will try not to let this happen, if possible), but we will NOT give them Republic for free.

Thus the ball is in the court of CFC and the diplomats - can we convince them to give us an offer we won't instantly refuse? Will CDG get fed up of waiting and demand we end them?

Stay tuned, same Banana-time, same Banana-channel.

	04-08-2003 06:42									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Update: with CFC being stubborn and arrogant it looked as if this turn we would just end CDG in disgust af CFC, and because it seemed that every CDGer but Ghengis wanted out and the freedom to join another team NOW.

Hm ...... I have not heard any CDGer wanting to join Poly. Presumably, they are all going to CFC ?

	04-08-2003 11:18									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

At the risk of sounding rude:

Given the way CDG played their game, I wouldn't WANT them on our team...

I DEFINITELY would like them on CFC'S!

	05-08-2003 11:01									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

Further update: Turn 100 played.

No further word heard from CDG or GF, but their units are returning to their chokepoint - now renamed to something like "Palace of the Possums". They have built a worker, so we can no longer take the city without it razing. We gotta wait until it grows again.

CFC WAS contacted (well, OctavianX anyway, who is a Poly forum contributor but has no authority of any kind at CFC), and Octy said he would go and poll on the idea of trading with us after all. Apparently the original trade treaty we had was voted "yes" for by only CFC three people, or something similar. He seemed eased somewhat by the idea that we could possibly negotiate a timeframe for attacking GCA as part of the deal. I must stress that what Octy says may have no bearing on what CFC wants however! Still it's a hope.

This will lead to further delays etc, but there may be a chance of the whole trade thing going ahead now, as we can't end CDG without losing the choke, and we can't afford to build a settler at this critical juncture.

	05-08-2003 13:35									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt No further word heard from CDG or GF, but their units are returning to their chokepoint - now renamed to something like "Palace of the Possums". They have built a worker, so we can no longer take the city without it razing. We gotta wait until it grows again.

Why would CDG build a worker ? Does not make any sense to me.

1. They want to help us chop down the jungle ?
2. They want to gift the worker to us (not likely, if it's us, the worker will move to our side of their palace, not CFC) or CFC ?
3. No reason, irrational behaviour ?

	05-08-2003 16:02									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Better still - they could have let the worker stay in the city and gifted it to us.

All we can do is guess at CDGs ideas.

	05-08-2003 16:04									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

It has a palace, it should be producing culture. It couldn't be too many more turns until its radius expands.....

	05-08-2003 18:11									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why are we still holding back the capture of CDG's last city? Are we still hoping for the free medage tech? I thought the majority was in favor for taking their city now...?

	05-08-2003 20:35									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hagbart - if you'd read my second-to last post, I said that now they have built that worker we must wait for their cultural raidus to expand or for it to grow to 2 pop again - if not we autoraze the city. And we can't really afford a settler right now, nor do we want to have the chokepoint abandoned!

	05-08-2003 20:40									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh ok MrWIA, I wasn't aware of that.