01-08-2003 07:06									#1
	Take or Raze Toledo? Full PM-box? Change here!

take adv: don't have to settle city again later, of course another city does help.

raze adv: don't have to hold the city from counterattack, get workers (IIRC).


Personally I would like to raze it, as the mobile campaign were hoping for really does not allow us to leave Riders in the city for defence.

	01-08-2003 07:28									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Like MZ said, these 14 Riders are all that we have to use in the South. With a city, we can build a Barracks and get these Riders back up to full health quicker for a fast renewed assult.

	01-08-2003 08:25									#3
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Right... new option: take if we have lots of damaged riders. Post here if you want that option.

	01-08-2003 08:29									#4
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The city cannot be retaken by RP
So it is a GS counteroffensive that we must worry about.

So deep into enemy territory, I only keep cities that can be defended.

Take the city first.
Then decide if we want to disband it or not.
You dont get any workers... but it's a small price.

Has it been decided we are going to take Toledo ?
GS is a strategy giant.

I think we will find it gone if GS only had a few units in it.
They will not give us the satisfaction of an easy kill.

In the Vox war, they made sure the odds were always stacked in their favour.
In which case, I am not convinced that we should even take it, because it could be full of units.

Lets see what it looks like when we get the save back.
I am sure there will be a variety of surprises.

Regs

	01-08-2003 09:31									#5
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Here are some possible moves:

Note that by moving to the mountain south of Toledo is possible since the terrain crossing is forest not jungle. That position allows us to strike both at Toledo and NM simultaneously, and GS will have to defend only one.

Furthermore from that spot we can also choose to ignore those 2 cities and go on a rampage south which is really what I want, take as many crappy cities as possible, raze them and leave RP with only Pamplona. Getting into a slogging match is not what our Riders are there for.

Still, if Lego is right in that GS will hand back NM, then Toledo is righfully the city which is most likely to be well defended.

I am still undecided as to what is our course of action...

	01-08-2003 14:56									#6
	Got spare money?

This is a good point. This is also something that GS will see. There will be a stack of units on that moutain.

A big stack.

Why? For all the reasons you stated about multiple attack option for us and because we will be unable to see what is actually in Toledo. By looking at it from the outside, Knights fortified in a city with walls will do a number on our Riders (no retreating).

The only problem I see with this is it forces our hand. We would either have to take Toledo, or move S, S onto the hill N of NM. I am not sure that GS would want us to threaten NM as it will be the guardian angle to their one turn crossing Port that Lego told us about (two SE of NM). If they force us to take NM, then these magical one turn crossing spots are doomed.

Hmmm.... I guess our best option is to wait and see....

	01-08-2003 17:10									#7
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I really wish we could get someone to investigate Toledo and possible New Madrid also.

I agree with donegeal, it would be good to take Toledo and then rush a barracks to provide a rally point for our troops to heal up in the south.

	01-08-2003 18:35									#8
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I suggest that we move the first rider south and see if there is anything on that mountain. If there is nothing, I suggest we go there and make them either split their forces or do whatever there going to do with New Madrid.

	01-08-2003 19:40									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

But they can rush one more item in Toledo. Every turn we delay is anther thing they can rush build. They've got Walls, probably Barracks, delay is working in their favor not ours.

This is just my opinion, and I realize it probably a stupid one.

	01-08-2003 19:46									#10
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As I mentioned in another thread(and as has been been mentioned here), we can isolate Toldeo effectively by having that mountain. They can still move forces in over the hill s,sw of toledo. If we are willing to risk/sacrifice a rider we can move 1 s of the forest and see all approaches. Then a viewing of toledo and new madrid would give an absolute number of GS in the area.
Then we could make a decision. There is a chance Toledo is lightly defended and we are squandering a perfect opportunity, I just don't know if we can bet our whole offensive on this. On the other hand I can think of several real life situations where wars were lost(or at least made harder to win) becasue people waitied or more info. A really hard call.
Aggie

	01-08-2003 20:30									#11
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I agree with you Aggie, its just my concern that regardless of the rest of the area, can we afford to NOT attack Toledo. That one Rider we wish to move may be the one that takes the city. If it is lightly defended we can take the city move in and fortify to hold it. If it isn't and we just barely take it we can raze it to deny it to the enemy.

Knowing the garrison of Toledo would have a dramatic impact on our ability to make the best decision at this point.

	01-08-2003 21:23									#12
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I voted for taking it, but I want to change my vote to move one unit south to see what is on the moutain.

	02-08-2003 01:01									#13
	Put an end to popups!

It is a hard call, another thing to think about is this. What if GS is bluffing(and I think this is a real possibility) or they have rushed knights nw toward ND. In that case we can take BOTH Toledo and New Madrid this turn. I really don't think they really were prepared for war so quickly and were rushed by events. The logical way to attack us is to attack from the north over the channel instead of fighting a protracted stalemate in the south. Also the plea for "not razing cities" says to me they are worried about attack up north themselves. They either can lock down significant forces up north just to prevent landings or they can move offensive forces to counterattack immediately. They fear we will raze that port city up north. Maybe the whole inchon thing(something they must have known we WOULD find out about)is a ruse to make us think they have a bigger force here than they really do(this would be my guess)In there position I would make us think they are attacking the south while the whole time planning a northern attack. Also remember we could always gift a city to somebody to quick move our forces north if such an attack happened. A wise man said that all decision's are made with insufficeint facts, and this will be another one. Also they know me and know I like attacking only when I know sucess is certain. Maybe it is time to be out of character and role the dice. I am currently leaning toward attack but it is 51-49 so that might change, lets see how nd does and if they encounter any Gs troops.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 02-08-2003 at 01:08

	02-08-2003 01:32									#14
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I don't think we can attack NM this turn.

	02-08-2003 01:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I don't think we can attack NM this turn.

Actually thanks the 3 movement riders we can.(if we take toledo first).
Aggie

	02-08-2003 05:02									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

After seeing the RP stack I have come to the following conclusion. GS gave them tons of cash. No other way they get that army. This means that Gs most likely wasn't able to upgrade squat. I am leaning toward attack.
Aggie

	02-08-2003 09:09									#17
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RP have been consolidating their troops though...

Remember GS are strategists..they want to fight a defensive war, because the odds are in their favour.

From the Vox war, we learnt they they stayed in thier cities, and only attacked when they knew they could kill units. (ie they bombed the crap out of them)

I dont think they will attack our stack, because we have the best defense, and the odds are not in their favour.

I am tempted to just stick with the original plan.
Ignore GS, and move to the next mountain.

Then decide what to attack when we get pics.

New Madrid / New GS harbor / Toledo / or just ignore them altogether and take the RP cities out.

	02-08-2003 09:27									#18
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It may be the wrong decision but I tend to agree with Aggie.

	02-08-2003 18:44									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hmm... I'm beginning to agree with Hot_Enamel. Another thing to think about is that Legoland will shop over units to help with GS ONLY. Lets get Roleplay possessions first then go for GS later, when we have help.

	02-08-2003 22:28									#20
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Change my vote to move beneath it. This puts us in a position to pillage like crazy the second turn OR attack New Madrid.

	02-08-2003 22:34									#21
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I'm beginning to agree too, since the following dawned on me this morning:

Why would GS leave Toledo undefended? It would mean losing 1 city, knowing that we can't strike this turn at NM, the key city of the two. So, if GS can defend Toledo to the tooth hoping we strike it, then fall back onto NM if they do lose or if we're poised to next turn.

I suggest we bypass it. Move to the mountain S of if and then try and breakout.

	02-08-2003 23:59									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If we pilllage on the second turn it accomplishes the following:

Cuts off that road network from Pamplona to Toledo to New Madrid and the harbors.

Destroys all the improvements in the case our forces are defeated later and Roleplay gains those cities back or GS builds the Forbidden Palace there.

Personally I think its a good hedge to do SOME damage if the worst happens and we get slammed from GS or Roleplay later.

	03-08-2003 03:02									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like Ghengis' plan. It doesn't involve suicide against a city, and effectively cuts off Toledo.

The only thing that could be better about it is if we ended up on a mountain, but we do end up on a hill with a river bonus, so its less of a hit.

	03-08-2003 06:52									#24
	Put an end to popups!

we can set the rally point to be the mountain S-S-SW-SW of Toledo. THat would also be a good "breakout point" in which our stack would unleash hell at RP's crappy southern cities.

	03-08-2003 07:11									#25
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then we can't piliage all the tiles MZ.

ok, I'm going to play the turn, moving stack to S of Toledo.

	03-08-2003 16:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen we can set the rally point to be the mountain S-S-SW-SW of Toledo. THat would also be a good "breakout point" in which our stack would unleash hell at RP's crappy southern cities.

If I recall... New Madrid was supposed to be returned to RP. Toledo belongs to GS.

I am beginning to think, we may be better off to concentrate our forces, and kill 1 team off first.
ie...ignore GS and destroy RP.

Then it is 3 vs 1 (ND/GoW/Lego vs GS)

MZ's idea of S-S-SW-SW sounds pretty good to me.
We can just eliminate/raze every RP city and pretty much take them from the game.


GF – regarding the pillaging…
If Toledo is going to be a GS city, it will never be productive unless they get a GL and get a Forbidden Palace.
They are not getting any gold or shields from it. Pillaging will just destroy roads. I think our riders can more damage elsewhere by taking cities.

	03-08-2003 21:05									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

But those same roads help Roleplay and GS more than us. Our Riders always have a three movement. The bulk of their forces will have one movement, two for some. Odds are we won't be able to hold much down here till the end of the war. For now, pillaging the roads undercuts their ability to shift their defenses.